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Messages - Cary Austin

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Irrigation / Re: Large Irrigation system
« on: July 15, 2019, 07:22:47 AM »
Sorry I missed this.  Than TKB4!

Yeah something like this.

I don't understand.  If all the well does is fill the storage tank you should not need a CSV, pressure tank/pressure switch.  A gate valve would work to adjust the flow, but a ball valve would be better.  You can adjust it to run a long time before the Cycle Sensor shuts it off from running dry, or you can let it run wide open and let the Cycle Sensor turn it off and on until it hits the float switch.  Usually something in the middle of that is best with just some restriction using a ball valve.

The bolt on the CSV adjust the pressure only.  You determine how much the pump is producing by how many faucets you have open.  The CSV knows how much water you are using by the pressure.  When the CSV is set to 30 PSI, you will have 30 PSI in the house no matter if you have one faucet or three faucets open.  When the CSV sees the pressure drop to 29, it know you opened another faucet and it opens up to give you more water.  When the CSV sees 31 PSI, it knows you have closed a faucet, and it closes to give you less water.  It is all the time tying to maintain the 30 PSI you set it for.

Have you not seen this video?

Valve Tech / Re: CSV1A leaking at screw on top of spring cage
« on: July 12, 2019, 07:59:23 AM »
It is easy to do.  Just call me if you need some help.  The only thing anybody does wrong is get the little brass washer (slip ring) upside down.  Make sure the sharp edge of the brass washer is facing up, not down, or it will cut the rubber diaphragm.  If you don't mess with the adjustment bolt it won't even need re-adjusting.

Here is a parts breakdown.

Valve Tech / Re: CSV1A leaking at screw on top of spring cage
« on: July 12, 2019, 07:44:48 AM »
The diaphragm is probably leaking.  That is rare but happens.  You will need a new gut pack to drop in.  It is called an A-Cart on our shopping cart and cost about 90 bucks freight included.  Call if you need some help ordering or replacing.

For every foot of water above the pump you have at least 1.5 gallons of water stored in the well.  So, if you have 40’ above the pump you have 60 gallons stored you can use as fast or slow as you want.  You can pump 10 GPM for 6 minutes, 5 GPM for 12 minutes, or take a 3 GPM shower for 20 minutes.  The well usually has time to recover between uses.  This way you need a pump large enough to supply the what you need, even though the well only makes 1 GPM on the long term.

But if you don’t have any stored water in the well, then using a small pump and a 1 GPM Dole valve will let you put 1440 gallons per day in a storage tank.  Then with a booster pump you can use water anyway you want.

Don't see any problem filtering the water.  The CSV will make he 3/4HP act like a 1/2HP, but can't make a 1/2HP work like a 3/4HP when you need more water.  With a CSV the size of pump does not determine the draw from the well, the amount of water you are using does.

If your well only makes 4 GPM and you need to use more than that, a storage tank and booster pump will be needed.  Even then you have to store enough water to irrigate the amount you want.  You can figure 4 GPM entering the storage tank while you are taking out 10 GPM.  So the tank needs to be large enough to make up 6 GPM for as long as you need to water.

You can use a CSV with any size tank you want.  But counting on a pressure tank for water during times when the power goes off is not good.  The pressure tank is full when the pressure is at 60 and empty when the pressure is at 40.  You have no way to make sure the tank is pumped up to 60 before the power goes off.  Murphy's Law says the tank will always be at about 42 and almost empty when the power goes off.  If your tank has let you flush a few times during power outages in the past, you were just very lucky. 

The larger the pressure tank the longer you have to wait to see the strong constant shower pressure from the CSV.  A larger 20 gallon size pressure tank only holds 5 gallons of water anyway.  So, I just keep a 5 gallon water bottle in the closet.  That way I for sure have 5 gallons to use when the power is off.

I was assuming the 10S15-21 was the pump you have.  That pump is good if the water pulls down to 300’.  But at 33’ even with 115’ (50 PSI) added is only 148’ of head.  If the water pulls down that pump is needed.  If the water doesn’t pull down very far that pump is way too big.  Either way a big tank is about the best you can do since that pump builds so much pressure with water at 33’.

That was my son Sam.  Yes 240 PSI is more than i like on even 200# poly pipe.  But I can't believe anyone would set a pump at 500' on poly to start with.  Just at the bottom of 500' you will have 216 PSI, just from the depth.

I would probably set a 10 GPM, 1HP pump at about 300'.  Then the regular PK1A will work and poly pipe can easily handle the pressure.  You don't even have to change the motor.  Just put a 1HP pump end on that 1.5 HP motor and cut off 200' of pipe and wire.

Of course you could always just get a larger or multiple tanks and live with what you have.

Without a CSV all the pipe sees is the 40 to 60 when using a 40/60 switch.  With a CSV all the pipe before the CSV will see 240 PSI because you have such a high head pump with water at 33'.  The pex won't handle that pressure. It would be best to install the CSV's right at the well head before the pex.  The well pipe should be able to handle the pressure, and the pex after the CSV will only see 40 to 60 PSI.

The CSV's can be installed in any position you want.  The only consideration is that all the pipe before the CSV will see the 240 PSI.  You can tell if a CSV has failed because the pump will turn off while you are using water.  With a CSV the pump will continue to run as long as a faucet is open.

Each CSV1A will have about 15 PSI of friction loss.  So two of the CSV1A valves will add 30 PSI or 69' of head to the 148' we already added up.  That would be a minimum head of 217', which shows to keep a 10 GPM, 1HP at less than 16 GPM and below the upthrust limit.

Water under water doesn't weigh anything.  Even though the pump is set at 500', it is only lifting from 33'.  50 PSI is the same as 115' of head so 115' plus 33' is a total head the pump will see of 148' of head.  As the water level pulls down the head will increase accordingly.  But like you said 2 gallons per foot, a house uses maybe 300 gallons per day, so you are never pulling it down below about 180' or so.  Your water is coming into the casing at 645' and 740'.  But you will need to pull the water level down from the top before any will start coming in from below.  As you are pulling water from above the pump, you can be boiling water 2' lower at the bottom of the motor.  Also the pump should have been cycling on and off while just running one faucet. Either or both of those things can cause an overload to trip.

A 4" shroud or flow inducer over the pump makes water go past the motor and keep it cool even when being fed from the top. 

With such a high head pump and such shallow static water level, the first CSV1A would be set to 150 PSI, and the second would be set to the 50 PSI you want.  That way there is only about 100 PSI difference across either CSV and they will last a long time.

I don't think the #14 wire will cause the overload to trip.  You can actually run a 1.5HP on #14 wire as long as 190'.  It will work like a reduced voltage soft starter and should not trip the overload.  If it did trip the overload, it would be on start up.  Since the pump was running when it tripped the overload, I am guessing it is a flow issue and the motor is not getting cooling. If the pump is set below where the water comes into the well, it is top feeding the pump, and the motor will get hot.  Do you know if the well is cased, or where the water is coming into the well?

Upthrust will be a problem.  It doesn't matter that the pump is set at 500', it is still only lifting from the water level of 30'.  So you have a pump designed for 500' with only 145' of head on it.  The only time it will see 470' of head is when the water level has been pulled down to 370'.  Having such a deep set pump is such a shallow well means there will be 230 PSI on the CSV and the pipe before the CSV.

Yes a CSV helps with upthrust.  But you have gotten such an over sized pump it will take two CSV1A valve to bring it down from 230 PSI to 50 PSI.  And yes a CSV works with a pressure tank. 

Explanation for a second grader is to find out why it is tripping the overload, because the #14 wire isn't the problem.  I am thinking the pump is set too deep to get cooling from below the motor.

Also see our video as to how a CSV works here.

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