Messages

1141

Irrigation / Re: Second tank down the line?

« on: June 16, 2014, 09:00:08 AM »

You are making this much harder than it really is.  The CSV will work with any size tank.  The CSV does not let the tank fill and the pump shut off as long as you are using more than 1 GPM.  Then when you turn off all the sprinklers and faucets, the CSV lets the tank fill at 1 GPM until the pump shuts off.  To keep the CSV from taking 9 minutes to fill a tank that holds 9 gallons of water, you just set the CSV closer to the off setting of the pressure switch.  IE;  with a 40/60 pressure switch, set the CSV at 58 PSI, and it will only take 1 minute to fill the tank after you turn off all the faucets.

1142

Pumps, Wells, Tanks, Controls / Re: Pumptech CSV setup issues

« on: June 13, 2014, 01:44:06 PM »

that it (CSV) is NOT compatible with most pump protection devices.

It is a little confusing because with pumps that are not as good at reducing the amp draw, a Pumptec WILL work.  Some pumps that are not as good only drop from 11.5 to maybe 9 amps, so the 25% thing that can’t be changed in the Pumptec is OK.  Also a few other devices that have an adjustable underload will work with a CSV.

What is the warranty on the cycle sensor?

12 months from installation or 24 months from manufacture.

Also, regarding pump cooling at low flow. Franklin states that the 2hp motor I'm using does not require a sleeve up to about 86* water temp. I take it that the motor is efficient enough where heat produced is not a problem provided satisfactory ambient water temperature.

It is not that the motor is “efficient enough”, it is that the motor has been shortened up so much that the suction is not far from the end of the motor, so it should still get some circulation of water no matter the inflow location in the well.

 

As franklin does not recommend cycle stop valves, if the motor can cool itself, without sleeve, drawing 11.5 amps is it correct to say that its fine under lower load zero flow conditions?

Yes the low amps means the motor has been de-rated so much that it can be safely cooled while pumping hot water, or very little cool water.  Some may even be OK at zero flow, but we do not recommend less than 1 GPM.

It seems they contradict themselves regarding flow/cooling. At least on the 2hp Super Stainless series motors.

It just stands to reason that since flow past the motor is needed for proper cooling, a shroud would always be a good thing, and it is.  Remember Franklin makes motors, so all they really want is for it to last just past the warranty period.

The CSV is a very simple product but the explanation for how it works with pumps can be complicated.  We have been trying for 22 years to gather and post all the information needed.  Just like this, after all these years there are still things comes up that we need to add.  Sorry for any inconvenience.  As you can see I posted even more on this topic today.  Thanks for bringing it to my attention.

1143

Frequently Asked Questions / Re: Will Franklin Electric Pumptec work with a CSV?

« on: June 12, 2014, 12:27:35 PM »

Again the answer is NO.  A Pumptec will not work with a CSV or any device that reduces the amperage of the pump/motor.

There are very few of these type devices that have an adjustable underload that will work with a CSV.

That is why we had to come up with a Dry Well protection device that does have an adjustable underload and will work with a CSV.  We make Cycle Sensors for any size pump.

1144

Frequently Asked Questions / Will Franklin Electric Pumptec work with a CSV?

« on: June 12, 2014, 12:24:16 PM »

The following is an email from a CSV customer to Franklin Electric, asking if a Pumptec will work with a CSV.  Notice that the Tech from Franklin wasted no time trying to make the CSV look like it would damage the pump, which it will not.  He never even answered the question about the Pumptec.  The answer should have been, "No, the Pumptec will not work with any device that reduces the amperage of the pump/motor". 

I was recently assured that Franklin will no longer make such inaccurate and disparaging remarks about the CSV.  Being as the CSV has never caused a problem with a single pump/motor in 22 years, these are foolish as well as liable statements from Franklin Electric.  The Cycle Stop Valve makes pump/motors last much longer than they were designed to last and eliminates the need for extremely profitable products like Variable Frequency Drives and big pressure tanks, which do not lengthen the life of pump/motors.  So I highly doubt that Franklin will stop trying to dissuade people from finding and using a product as beneficial as the CSV.

The following is the email to and from Franklin Electric.

Franklin Electric Contact Form Inquiry
This message was submitted through the Franklin Electric Corporate Website. Below is more information on the inquiry submitted.
·   First Name: R
·   Last Name: H
·   Position:
·   Address: XXXXXXXX
·   City: S
·   State: C
·   Zip: 00000
·   Phone Number: XXXXXXXXX
·   FAX Number:
·   Country: USA
·   Request: My contractor just installed the above pump in a shallow well for my water supply. Everything is working well but he suggested replacing my old water tank with a Cycle Stop Valve (CSV) to provide better pressure control and to greatly reduce the number of on/off cycles. Since my shallow well can become limited during extreme drought periods (ran dry two times in 37 years) I wish to install your Pumptec Plus pump protection device. My question is since CSVs place a varying load on the pump in order to provide constant water pressure, would your Pumptec Plus system still function properly with a CSV system? Thank you.
·   Email: H
·   Model: 10FV05P4-2W230 series V
·   Horsepower: 1/2
·   Control Box Model: N/A
·   Voltage: 230
·   Wire/Phase: 2-Wire


From Franklin Electric to customer;

Robert:
 
We do not recommend a CSV to be put on submersibles.   There is a serious change of inadequate flow to cool motor and addition down thrust on the motor shortening the life.
 
W N
Technical Service Engineer
 
Franklin Electric
9255 Coverdale Rd.
Fort Wayne,  IN  46809
1.800.348.2420
1.260.827.5102 Fax

1145

Pumps, Wells, Tanks, Controls / Re: Will Franklin Pumptec work with CSV?

« on: June 12, 2014, 12:21:21 PM »

Again the answer is NO.  A Pumptec will not work with a CSV or any device that reduces the amperage of the pump/motor.

There are very few of these type devices that have an adjustable underload that will work with a CSV.

That is why we had to come up with a Dry Well protection device that does have an adjustable underload and will work with a CSV.  We make Cycle Sensors for any size pump.

1146

Pumps, Wells, Tanks, Controls / Will Franklin Pumptec work with CSV?

« on: June 12, 2014, 12:13:25 PM »

The following is an email from a CSV customer to Franklin Electric, asking if a Pumptec will work with a CSV.  Notice that the Tech from Franklin wasted no time trying to make the CSV look like it would damage the pump, which it will not.  He never even answered the question about the Pumptec.  The answer should have been, "No, the Pumptec will not work with any device that reduces the amperage of the pump/motor". 

I was recently assured that Franklin will no longer make such inaccurate and disparaging remarks about the CSV.  Being as the CSV has never caused a problem with a single pump/motor in 22 years, these are foolish as well as liable statements from Franklin Electric.  The Cycle Stop Valve makes pump/motors last much longer than they were designed to last and eliminates the need for extremely profitable products like Variable Frequency Drives and big pressure tanks,which do not lengthen the life of pump/motors.  So I highly doubt that Franklin will stop trying to dissuade people from finding and using a product as beneficial as the CSV.

The following is the email to and from Franklin Electric.

Franklin Electric Contact Form Inquiry
This message was submitted through the Franklin Electric Corporate Website. Below is more information on the inquiry submitted.
·   First Name: R
·   Last Name: H
·   Position:
·   Address: XXXXXXXX
·   City: S
·   State: C
·   Zip: 00000
·   Phone Number: XXXXXXXXX
·   FAX Number:
·   Country: USA
·   Request: My contractor just installed the above pump in a shallow well for my water supply. Everything is working well but he suggested replacing my old water tank with a Cycle Stop Valve (CSV) to provide better pressure control and to greatly reduce the number of on/off cycles. Since my shallow well can become limited during extreme drought periods (ran dry two times in 37 years) I wish to install your Pumptec Plus pump protection device. My question is since CSVs place a varying load on the pump in order to provide constant water pressure, would your Pumptec Plus system still function properly with a CSV system? Thank you.
·   Email: H
·   Model: 10FV05P4-2W230 series V
·   Horsepower: 1/2
·   Control Box Model: N/A
·   Voltage: 230
·   Wire/Phase: 2-Wire


From Franklin Electric to customer;

Robert:
 
We do not recommend a CSV to be put on submersibles.   There is a serious change of inadequate flow to cool motor and addition down thrust on the motor shortening the life.
 
W N
Technical Service Engineer
 
Franklin Electric
9255 Coverdale Rd.
Fort Wayne,  IN  46809
1.800.348.2420
1.260.827.5102 Fax

1147

Pumps, Wells, Tanks, Controls / Re: Pumptech CSV setup issues

« on: June 12, 2014, 07:18:13 AM »

I am sorry but it is Frankin who should be more forthcoming with the way a Pumptec works or does not work.  They should make it clear that the Pumptec will not work with a Ball Valve, Dole Valve, Cycle Stop Valve, or any of the multiple devices that reduce the amp draw.  My product (CSV) is working flawlessly.  The pump is running from 11.5 to 6 amps, which means it is a very good pump. 

The Pumptec is your problem.  But if you call Franklin they will tell you that the CSV is the problem because the amps are dropping too much.  The CSV eliminates cycling, makes the motor pull fewer amps, run cooler, use less energy, and last much longer.  Those are all good things.  If the Pumptec won’t let that happen it needs to be thrown away.  Sorry.

We mention this many times in our web page.  It is Franklin who needs to explain the inadequacy of their Pumtec.

PS;  I do not consider the Pumptec an “industry standard”.  It is a proprietary product that is designed NOT to work with beneficial products from other companies.

1148

Pumps, Wells, Tanks, Controls / Re: Pumptech CSV setup issues

« on: June 11, 2014, 11:48:25 AM »

I am sorry but a Pumptec just will not work with a good pump and a CSV.  It is a good pump because the amps drop from 11.5 to 6 when using very little water.  If you "snapshot" the Pumptec at high flow, it will trip out on low amps at low flow.  If you "snapshot" the Pumptec at low flow, it will trip out on high amps at high flow.

That is why we made the Cycle Sensor.  It has an infinitely adjustable settings so it WILL work with a good pump and a CSV.

1149

Pumps, Wells, Tanks, Controls / Re: CSV / Tank sizing recommendation

« on: May 25, 2014, 05:34:21 PM »

I know it sounds unbelievable, but you can replace that 220 gallon equivalent tank with a 4.5 gallon size tank. 

A 220 equivalent tank only holds about 30 gallons of water.  That is still a pretty small tank for a 20 GPM pump and/or an irrigation system that might use 2,000 to 4,000 gallons per day.

Your well is strong and that is where your water comes from.  The tank is only there to slow down the cycling on/off of the pump.  With a Cycle Stop Valve the cycling is eliminated because the water goes right past the tank at the exact rate it is being used.  So you don’t need a very large tank.

You can purchase the entire PK1A Pside-Kick kit with the CSV1A valve, 4.5 gallon tank, 40/60 switch, 75# pressure relief, pressure gauge, and other fittings for much less than the cost of a big replacement tank.  Believe it or not your pump will last longer from cycling less, and the pressure will be better, especially when running the irrigation system.

You can purchase one here.  http://cpkits.com/products/pk1a

1150

Pumps, Wells, Tanks, Controls / Re: Pump recommendations to match with pside kick to boost city water pressure

« on: May 16, 2014, 01:26:20 PM »

The CSV in the Pside-kick kit will let you install as large a pump as you think you may need, and still be able to use it down to as little as 1 GPM. But the CSV or Pside-kick cannot make extra water, so if you start with too small a pump, you get too little water. If there is not much difference in price you can step up to a 1 HP pump and never have to worry that you will have enough water.

1151

Pumps, Wells, Tanks, Controls / Re: Help me size my CSV/Pump/Motor

« on: May 13, 2014, 07:05:14 AM »

Your 163' is correct, but divided by 2.31 makes that equal 70 PSI not 55.

So you need the CSV set for 70 PSI with a 60/80 pressure switch, then you are good to go.  The 70 PSI is why you will need a CSV3B2T.

1152

Pumps, Wells, Tanks, Controls / Re: Help me size my CSV/Pump/Motor

« on: May 10, 2014, 05:29:30 PM »

The plastic CSV’s are my favorite.  That is what I use at my house.  They have almost no friction loss and no reduced pressure falloff.  So they give you more water from the pump than our other valves, and hold a constant pressure throughout the 1 to 25 GPM range.

The design of this valve, which reduces losses so well, is also the reason that these valves can leak a little through the air vents.  The valves only leak when there are abrasives or slimy stuff in the water, and then they usually only leak about 1 gallon per week.  As long as the valve is installed inside the well casing or inside the cistern, who cares if it leaks a gallon a week?  The CSV1 does not have to be submerged, but installed inside the cistern tank either way does negate most of the problems with this valve.  That little leak can only be a problem if the valve is installed where it can make a wet spot on the floor.

As long as the plastic CSV’s can vent, they will work.  So if you have something slimy in the water, we have instructions on how to drill a larger vent hole to keep the slimy stuff from clogging up the air vent.  See this link.  http://www.cyclestopvalves.com/prod_csv1_submerged.html

The 1” plastic CSV’s are only 63 bucks.  So you really can’t afford not to use one.  And when used with a small pressure tank they save hundreds on equipment costs.

You will want to add a little chlorine occasionally to keep the growth out of the cistern tank.  With any system that has a water quality issue that can affect the CSV, pressure tank, pressure switch, check valves, etc., I recommend a Cycle Sensor for protection.  See this link.  http://www.cyclestopvalves.com/prod_sensor.html

The Cycle Sensor will shut the pump down if the CSV, pressure tank, or pressure switch malfunction and lets the pump start cycling too fast.  It will also shut the pump off if you pump the cistern dry.  Both of these things can save the pump/motor if something does get clogged up.

1153

Pumps, Wells, Tanks, Controls / Re: Help me size my CSV/Pump/Motor

« on: May 09, 2014, 02:13:55 PM »

The CSV1A can get you 25 GPM at 50 PSI with a 25 GPM, 1.5 HP pump.  You will need to set the CSV1A at 65 PSI while running 3 GPM to get 50 PSI at 25 GPM because of the reduced pressure falloff on that valve.  CSV set at 65 means the pressure switch needs to be about 50/70.

You can do the same thing with a 1HP, 25 GPM pump using the CSV1-50 as it has very little friction loss and no reduced pressure falloff.

1154

Valve Tech / Re: Can iron in water interfere with a CSV 140?

« on: May 09, 2014, 12:17:28 PM »

Iron will slim up and clog the air vents in a CSV1 type valve.  I would recommend drilling an additional vent hole the same way we do when the CSV is submerged.  Then it would be safer to use the CSV with a Cycle Sensor.  The Cycle Sensor will shut the pump down before it is damaged from cycling if the CSV gets plugged with iron and malfunctions.

1155

Industrial / Re: Chilled Water System

« on: May 09, 2014, 12:14:42 PM »

A CSV works well with chiller applications.  It will maintain a constant pressure to the chiller from as little as 5 GPM to as much as the pump will produce (500 GPM).  The CSV will not do the differential pressure thing like you can do with a VFD, but that is rarely necessary.  The CSV will vary the flow by maintaining constant pressure.  If you open up more demand, the CSV will supply more water.  When you demand less water, the CSV will deliver less water.  The CSV will match whatever flow rate is demanded.