Messages

1156

Pumps, Wells, Tanks, Controls / Re: Help me size my CSV/Pump/Motor

« on: May 09, 2014, 12:08:44 PM »

The reason I didn't mention the CSV2W was because it has more friction loss which won't work with that 1.5 HP pump.  You would have to go with the 2 HP to get the same water if you use the CSV2W.  The CSV125 and the CSV3B2T have much less friction loss than the CSV2W.

I prefer Well-X-Trol tanks but, the brand is not as important with a CSV as the bladder in the tank will see much less cycling.

The smaller the pump the more efficient it will be with the drip system.  Or you can double up on the drip and run 2 of those 16 GPM zones at the same time.

1157

Pumps, Wells, Tanks, Controls / Re: Help me size my CSV/Pump/Motor

« on: May 09, 2014, 07:42:26 AM »

We have been using CSV’s to solve these kinds of problems for 22 years now.  If the supply houses haven’t heard about them, they are not very well educated on pump systems.  More than likely they have heard about CSV’s, and their companies have chosen to act like they don’t know what it is, or to claim CSV’s don’t work for some reason.

Can’t say as I blame them.  A CSV125-50 will only cost you $111.30, and you would only need about a 20 gallon size pressure tank, which I see selling for $140 or so.  So for roughly $250, you will have every thing you need to run from as little as 3 GPM up to 35 GPM, as that is the amount that pump can produce.  The CSV will make your pump, tank, switches, and everything else in your pump system last many decades.

The CSV was designed as a simple, inexpensive, and long lasting replacement for VFD’s, and we have replaced hundreds of thousands of them in the last 22 years.  The supply houses would rather you purchase a couple of really large pressure tanks for about $2,000.00.  Or they would be fine selling you a VFD for a couple thousand as well.  Either of these will make the supply houses a lot of money.  Neither of these will last very long or make your pump last very long, so they will get to sell you a new set up on average of about every 7 years.

It has been proven that a CSV will at least triple if not quadruple the life of pumps and associated equipment.  So if you want the supply houses and pump manufacturers to make a lot of money off of you, go with the VFD or a couple of large pressure tanks.  If you want something inexpensive that will last a long time, you have come to the right place.

I looked up the pump curve you posted and the 35 GPM, 1.5 HP pump will work fine with our plastic, domestic grade CSV125-50 for $111.30.  Or you can use one of our heavy-duty, long lasting, municipal grade CSV3B2T valves, which sell for $647.50.  You won’t see any difference in performance between these two valves.  Just that one is adjustable and longer lasting than the other.  However, for the difference in price, you could replace the CSV125-50 about 6 times for the same money as the CSV3B2T if needed.

I have had one of the little plastic valves in my well for 22 years now.  But water quality has a big effect on how long these valves will last.  If you have dirty or slimy water, the more expensive CSV3B2T would be best.

There are lots of good applications for VFD’s.  But pumping water like this is not one of them.  VFD’s are just used for these kinds of water pumps because the company that sells the pumps and VFD’s will make a lot more money.  If you don’t mind paying a lot more and having a lot more problems, then a VFD is what you want.

Oh, BTW, Franklin is one of the biggest instigators of pushing those VFD's on people.  So I would prefer to see you use a different pump company and not encourage Franklin.  F&W is a good US made pump, and now they have their own motor.  I had just rather promote companies who are not trying to shove a VFD down peoples throats for the extra profit.

1158

Pumps, Wells, Tanks, Controls / Re: Not understanding backpressure and what kind of pipe I need

« on: April 30, 2014, 07:06:35 AM »

A 1/2HP, 10 GPM pump can only produce 96 PSI of back pressure.  Just about any pipe you want to use can handle that little amount of pressure.  Sch 80 or even Sch 40 is plenty for this application.

1159

Pumps, Wells, Tanks, Controls / Re: Split water system - well feeds two buildings with buried T

« on: April 29, 2014, 07:24:04 AM »

You are trying to make this harder than it needs to be.  Just install a CSV prior to the tee that splits off to the barn.  The two big tanks won't hurt anything, but later on when you need to replace the tanks you can replace them with a little 4.5 gallon size tank.

1160

Pumps, Wells, Tanks, Controls / Re: What type of CSV should I use for each pump and how should I set them up?

« on: April 10, 2014, 05:07:56 PM »

Spring has come and now the rush is on to complete this project.  Please excuse the long delay.

I have some questions. 

1.  There is a difference in elevation of 10 feet between the 2 setups.  Will the 4.33 of PSI of pressure difference between the two pressure switches affect the setup?  My guess is yes.  With the CSV and pressure switches set up with only off 5 PSI of difference in your calculations, and the difference in elevation are we back to equal?

Note:  The 3HP Pump setup is 10 feet below the 5hp pump setup.

You just set the lower pump 4 PSI higher to make up the difference.

2.  If I understand correctly, the reason to make the 3HP as the primary pump is for its ability to handle the lower flow demand.  I completely agree with this approach.

Yes it is usually more efficient to have the smallest pump come on first.

3.  Can the CSV be mounted in a verticle fashion or is the valve required to be mounted horizontally.  I ask this because of space concerns in the well "rock"

The CSV2W valves can be installed in any position.  You may not want to put the CSV after the filters as that will put a lot of pressure on the filter housings.

4.  Will I be able to tweak the valve little by little to get the exact desired results or does the valve only adjust in increments of 5psi.  I think this question relates to question #1

You can set the CSV’s to any pressure you want.  It is usually not that critical but they can be sensitive to less than 1 PSI.

1161

Frequently Asked Questions / Replace a CU301 controller

« on: March 24, 2014, 10:45:59 AM »

The Pside-Kick kit has everything you need to replace a CU301.  You can even replace the entire brass manifold if you want and use the extra ports in the CSV1A to attach the tank, switch, gauge, PRV, etc., if you like.  Or you can plug the extra holes in the CSV1A and use the existing manifold for the new tank, pressure switch, etc.

Here are a couple of links to show how it is done.

http://www.cyclestopvalves.com/csvapplications_21.html

http://www.cyclestopvalves.com/csv-vs-vfd_1.html

Thanks
Cary
800-652-0207

1162

Frequently Asked Questions / Re: Pump won't run

« on: March 11, 2014, 07:48:19 AM »

says he doesn't think they're necessary, only uses them on large installations like golf courses etc. 

He is right.  You can get by without a CSV on a domestic system as long as you don't mind using a larger pressure tank, having 40/60 pressure fluctuations instead of a constant 50 PSI in the shower, and cycling your pump to death much sooner than it should.  If the CSV solves those problems on a big golf course system, it can easily solve those problems on small domestic size pump system.  Your pump man just hasn't figured that out yet. 

1163

Frequently Asked Questions / Re: Pump won't run

« on: March 10, 2014, 07:33:38 AM »

2 minutes of runtime after turning off all faucets is a good way to set the pressure switch.  You never need to adjust the small adjustment screw so the difference between on and off will stay 20 PSI.  Tighten the big adjustment screw clockwise most of the way in.  Then loosen the large adjustment until the pump shuts off 2 minutes after shutting all faucets off.

Some people buy a 1.25" CSV because they have 1.25" lines.  But the CSV125 is designed for 50 GPM pumps.  You only need a CSV1 for pumps up to 25 GPM.  I am guessing since 24 amps is locked rotor, that you don't have larger than a 25 GPM pump.  The CSV125 will work on smaller pumps, but it has a 3 GPM minimum and tank fill rate instead of a 1 GPM minimum like the CSV1.  So the CSV125 will fill the tank faster and the pump will still cycle when using less than 3 GPM, like when using a 2.5 GPM shower.

1164

Frequently Asked Questions / Re: Pump won't run

« on: March 09, 2014, 04:21:20 PM »

With a 30/50 pressure switch, the pump was shutting off at 50 before the 50 PSI CSV could do anything.  The CSV wasn't doing anything except being a piece of pipe.  You have to shut the pump off higher than 50 for a 50 PSI valve to be able to work at all.

I am sorry your pump is not working, but the CSV didn't have anything to do with it.  It might have saved your pump if the CSV had been installed a long time ago, and set properly where it would have eliminated the cycling.

1165

Frequently Asked Questions / Can Water Hammer Damage Thrust Bearings?

« on: March 06, 2014, 08:42:57 AM »

Water is not compressible but it can be pressurized or non-pressurized.  Below the check valve, water in a submersible pump is not pressurized when the pump is off.  Above the check valve, water is pressurized even when the pump is off.

At the instant of pump start, high velocity is induced so the impellers stack, and even the rotor in the motor go into up-thrust condition.  When the pressure in the pump is high enough to push the check valve open, the impeller stack and rotor are pushed back down.

This all happens in a fraction of a second.  But each time the pump is started the impellers, shaft, and rotor fly up, and then get slammed back down.  This is another reason why multiple starts are not good for a pump and/or motor.

I am working on a case now where the installer is regularly shattering thrust bearings in a 50 HP submersible motor.  It is set at 1200’ and has 5 check valves spaced evenly in the drop pipe.  The manufacturers are telling him he must have a check valve every 200’.  I am telling him the multiple check valves are the cause of the fractured thrust bearings.

A pump that is designed to work from 1200’ will be in an up-thrust condition until it gets 1200’ of head applied to it.  Each check valve up the drop pipe isolates the pump from the 1200’ of head.  Until the bottom check valve is pushed open, the pump only sees 200’ of head.  Until the second check valve from the bottom is pushed open, the pump only sees 400’ of head, and so on.  Not until the fifth check valve at the top is pushed open will the pump see the 1200’ of head it needs to keep from being in up-thrust.

For each check valve in the drop pipe the shaft and rotor go from complete up-thrust to being hammered back down as soon as the water hits the next check valve.  Water hammer can easily fracture a thrust bearing.  And the 5 check valves are causing 5 water hammer events before the water ever starts flowing out the top of the well.  The thrust bearings look like they have been busted with a sledgehammer.

Having only one check valve attached directly to the pump will solve this problem.  Sure the pump will go into up-thrust until this check valve is pushed open.  But the short distance between the pump and the check valve will cause much less shock to the thrust bearing than check valves higher in the drop pipe.  When the pump is started, each additional check valve causes the pump to go from an up-thrust condition to hammering the rotor down against the thrust bearing.

1166

Frequently Asked Questions / Re: Why is external bypass not as good as CSV bypass?

« on: March 03, 2014, 09:18:48 AM »

Dear Sir
Thank you for your interest.  Although a bypass around the side of the valve does basically the same thing, it has several flaws.  We started building CSV’s that way more than 20 years ago. 

The first problem was evident.  The external bypass was very noisy.  With high differential pressure it sounded like a jet engine.

The second problem was water hammer or surge from the main valve when it closed fully or popped open from the fully closed position.  When using valve speed controls, a diaphragm type valve will always speed up dramatically as the valve gets closer and closer to closing, and the differential pressure increases.  You really cannot slow down the last ¼” of closing enough to prevent surge, without really slowing down the upper stroke of the valve, making the valve work much too slowly.  Controlling the valve speed to prevent opening or closing too quickly causes surges and pump cycling when the valve cannot keep up with sudden flow changes in the distribution system. 

The third problem was the bypass getting clogged with debris.  Since the main purpose of the bypass is to properly cool the pump/motor, a clogged bypass is devastating.

The fourth problem took a little time to show its face.  The velocity through the small bypass can exceed 200 feet per second.  This causes minerals to precipitate out of solution and grow to clog the bypass, the same as holes in a showerhead become clogged.

For many years other valve companies have tried external bypasses.  They never really caught on because of all the problems listed above.

The non-closing seat of the CSV solved all those problems. 

The internal bypass is completely quite. 

Water hammer or surge is eliminated, as the CSV can never fully close or have to pop open from a closed position. 

The non-closing CSV can be made to operate many times faster than fully closing valves without causing hammer or surge.  Making the valve able to keep up with any sudden changes in flow.  Not only do we not use any speed controls but instead supercharge the pilot system to make the CSV open and close as fast as possible.

Also the “two half moon” type bypass that come together to make a hole when the valve closes, will split in two each time the valve opens, flushing through any debris that maybe trying to clog the bypass.  Since the CSV maintains a set downstream pressure, a clogged bypass would lower the downstream pressure, causing the two half moons to split apart, automatically flushing any debris.

The internal bypass of the CSV that splits apart also eliminates clogging from minerals precipitating out of solution during high velocity.

After experiencing all the problems of an external bypass, the solution was found to be the internal, self-flushing bypass design that we use today.  While theoretically a bypass is a bypass and should work the same, the non-closing bypass design of the CSV solved all the problems we encountered with an external bypass.  When placed side by side there is no comparison.  The CSV bypass design is greatly superior to an external bypass.

Please let me know if you have more questions.
Thanks
Cary Austin

1167

Frequently Asked Questions / Why is external bypass not as good as CSV bypass?

« on: March 03, 2014, 09:17:14 AM »

Dear Sir
I had the pleasure to look through your site
Congratulations for the idea , however I do not share your idea in using leaking seat pressure reducer.
With standard control valve at full closing seat you may install bypass to handle low flow.
Sizing of bypass is the key parameter.
I would propose the following.
1.       From pump curve, find allowable P max and associated Q min
2.       Specify the requested pressure setting for the pressure switch = Psetting
3.       Calculate H = Pmax-Psetting   in meters, difference between pump pressure and
       pressure switch.
4.       Size bypass diameter basing on Max velocity of 4 m/s and Q min of pump
5.       Insert orifice plate with headloss coefficient of : k =0.815*H     H in m , K unitless

I think that the system will work perfectly even with standard pressure reducer without the need for leaking seat.
 
I will appreciate your comments.

1168

Pumps, Wells, Tanks, Controls / Re: New Install.....need Advice

« on: March 02, 2014, 07:02:03 PM »

CSV’s smaller than 2” can be installed anyway you want.  The CSV160 is a really good valve as long as it is installed in a place where a small weep or drip from underneath won’t hurt anything.  They work fine when installed outside, in valve boxes, crawlspaces, or a well house with a dirt floor.  The best place to install one is inside the well casing.

The CSV160 is what I have at my house, but it is installed in the well.  I pulled the first one out after 12 years just to inspect it.  The second one has been in there for close to 9 years now.

How high you go with the pressure switch depends on what size tank you use.  With a little tank I would use a 50/70 pressure switch.  But of you use a larger tank you will want to use something like 45/65.
 
If you put the CSV in the well, the pop off valve can stay on the well head.  If you install the CSV outside the well, the pop off valve has to go after the CSV.

1169

Irrigation / Re: I'm tired of replacing my AquaBoost pumps & controllers!

« on: February 24, 2014, 09:27:05 AM »

Hi Virgil
I haven’t heard back from memse for a couple of years.  Since I haven’t heard back, I assume he got rid of the Aquaboost and got a standard reliable type pump.  The sooner you eliminate the variable speed type pump, the sooner you will start climbing out of that money pit.

1170

Frequently Asked Questions / Can I use a CSV with a Solar Pump?

« on: February 16, 2014, 07:38:10 AM »

I do not recommend a CSV for most solar powered systems.  A CSV cannot be used with solar pumps that have a helical or spiral shaft, or any type of piston, rotary gear, or other positive displacement type pumps.  A CSV can be used with any pump that has a regular centrifugal impeller.  However, you will get the most gallons produced by the least amount of amps by letting the pump run at its maximum flow rate whenever possible.

When using solar or batteries, water stored in a pressure tank is just as good or better than amps stored in the batteries.  Because an 80 gallon size pressure tank only holds about 25 gallons of water, you might even want to consider 2 pressure tanks.  This would help prevent cycling of the pump and would leave lots of water stored under pressure and ready to be used.  In this way, when your pump is running, it is always supplying the most water it can produce with the least amount of energy.  The more water you can store in a pressure tank, the fewer amps your batteries will have to store.

One trick you can use is to top off the pressure tanks before you run out of sunlight.  Then let the batteries recharge with the last of the sun.  You can push the plate on the pressure switch to manually start the pump and top off the pressure tank(s).  In this way you will have full pressure tanks and full batteries before it gets dark.  Storing water in the tank this way is as good as having extra batteries.