Messages

1216

Pumps, Wells, Tanks, Controls / Re: sizing for a residential house

« on: October 10, 2013, 08:45:23 PM »

okay my interest in this product is peaked.  my house has 30 water outlets, faucets,toilets, spigots etc along with an inground sprinkling system.  so I worry that, if I go with to small a tank,  every time the toilet flushes, someone washes hands, rinse a dish etc that the system is still cycling on and off because of the small tank size.  Am I correct?  also I should go with the stainless model of valve so it wouldn't leak in my basement?  my pump is 1 1/2 hp at 20 gpm.  thanks for any input you can give me.

A funny thing about a CSV is, the more water a system uses, the smaller the tank can be.  I can’t argue with someone who only uses 50 gallons per day when they say a tank that holds 25 gallons (80 gallon actual size) will only cycle the pump twice a day.  But when you have a sprinkler system, garden hoses, multiple sinks, toilets, showers, appliances, etc, the small tank is all you need.

See this graphic;          http://www.cyclestopvalves.com/simple/home.php

The Cycle Stop Valve system is on the top.  A conventional tank system is on the bottom.  If you turn on a sprinkler and let it run for hours, the pump runs constantly for hours as well.  During this time, if you flush a toilet, take a shower, or use any other water, the pump is already running and the CSV just opens up a little to give you enough extra for the added shower.  When you turn off the shower or the toilets fill and shut off, the CSV just resets to the amount of water needed to run the sprinkler.

The same thing happens when you turn on a shower.  As long as the shower is on, the pump is also on, so even 40/11 toilets flushes don’t add a single extra cycle to the pump.  In a house where there are multiple people, and/or multiple systems using water, the pump will be running a lot of the time, which is a good thing.  As long as somebody, or something, somewhere in or around the house is using water, the pump is already running.  Anything else turned on just gets the extra water it needs, without the pump having to cycle one extra time.

It just takes a little change of old habits, but you will learn you can run your sprinklers or any other long term use of water during peak water use times for the house.  If you run your sprinklers from 6PM to 8PM, the pump will already be running when most showers, toilets, washing machines, etc, are being used.  In that way you are almost getting free water for the house, as the pump is already running, and it only cost a penny more to run the shower at the same time.  With a 20 GPM pump, you just don’t want to run more than about 15 GPM worth of sprinklers at a time, so you have some extra flow left for the house when needed.

If you noticed the conventional pump system at the bottom of the graphic, it is just cycling on and off continually no matter where or how much water is being used.  With a conventional tank system, you need to always run 20 GPM worth of sprinklers with a 20 GPM pump to keep it from cycling itself to death.  So you have to run the sprinklers from 2AM to 5AM, because there isn’t any water left for showers or anything.  It is hard to always run exactly 20 GPM worth of sprinklers.  Hoses and small zones are a pump killer, and watering at night may not be the best thing for the vegetation.

The Cycle Stop Valve just lets you use as much or as little water as you want without cycling the pump.  Water just goes from the pump, right past the tank, straight to the sprinklers, showers, wherever, because the CSV gives only the exact amount of water needed.  There is no extra water being produced to even go into the tank.   The CSV closes down to a minimum of 1 GPM when all the water use has finally been turned off.  Then this 1 GPM has no place left to go except the pressure tank.  The pressure tank is then topped off at the 1 GPM rate until the pressure switch shut off point is reached and the pump shuts off.

The CSV creates a mechanical timer by refilling the pressure tank at only 1 GPM.  A tank that holds 1 gallon of water above the set point of the CSV, will make the pump run for 1 more minute after all the faucets have been turned off.  This means if you flush a toilet, a CSV system with a 1 gallon draw tank will have to start for a 1.6 gallon flusher.  But it usually takes about 30 seconds for the toilet to fill and shut off, then the “mechanical timer” will make the pump run for another minute before shutting off.  So during this minute and a half, if someone starts a shower, runs a sink, or flushes another toilet elsewhere in the house, the pump doesn’t’ shut off between water uses. 

We have found that usually when someone in the house is up and using water, everybody in the house is up and using water.  They may not be using water at exactly the same time, but within a minute or so of the last water use.  So with the CSV system, the pump may run continuously from 6AM to 7:30AM, and again from 6PM to 9PM.  This is much better for the pump than cycling on and off multiple times.  And with the CSV system the pressure will remain at a constant 50 PSI throughout the house during this time instead of annoyingly cycling up and down continuously between 40 and 60 PSI.

With the CSV and a small tank, about the only way you can make the pump cycle with toilets, is to flush, wait 2 minutes and flush again, flush, wait 2 minutes and flush again, and continue.  Even then the pump will only be cycling about every 3 minutes which is only 20 times per hour.  And you would have to stand there and flush every three minutes for an hour to make that happen.  If you flush the toilet 20 times in a row as soon as it fills up again, the pump only cycles once for those 20 flushes. 

Again most flushes happen within a minute of using water somewhere else, and the CSV system makes sure the pump doesn’t have to cycle and extra time.  But even if you stood there and flushed every three minutes all day long, those 20 cycles per hour would still be less harmful for the pump than the cycling that happens with a conventional tank system in just a few hours of running a mismatched sprinkler system.

Sorry for the long post.  The CSV is a very simple product with a complicated explanation.  I have spent over 20 years and built an entire web page trying to make the explanation easier.  I keep thinking I am going to find the right words to make it easy to understand.  As you can tell from this latest attempt, it isn’t easy.

Maybe I should have just said, as I have thousands of times, try it, I guarantee you’ll like it, or your money back.  And hope 20+ years of never having to give a single person their money back speaks for itself.
Thanks
Cary

1217

Pumps, Wells, Tanks, Controls / Re: What type of CSV should I use for each pump and how should I set them up?

« on: October 05, 2013, 09:18:34 AM »

After looking at pictures and checking the pump curves, this is what I think.  It would be very helpful to know the pumping level of each well.  With such high static water levels and such good recovery rates for each well, I doubt that the water level is drawing down very much even when pumping full flow.  No matter how deep the pumps are set, they only lift from the actual water level.  So if the water level in the well doesn’t pull down very much, both of those pumps are way oversized.  This makes the pumps run in an up-thrust condition, which could be part of the problem.

I would test the pumping level in the well that still has a good pump, then consider the other well to have about the same pumping level.  If the pumping level doesn’t pull down more than I think it will, you can probably reduce the size of those pumps by 50%.  The smaller pumps would be less expensive to replace when needed, save a lot of energy, and still pump the same amount of water.

Also the check valves on each wellhead need to be removed.  The pumps must have check valves on them at the bottom of the well, and those are the only check valves you need in the system.  The check valves at the top of each well can cause water hammer, which could also be big part of your problem, as this water hammer can go down and shatter the down thrust bearings in the motors.  The best place to install a CSV is where the check valves are, so remove the checks and install CSV’s in these locations.

Without changing the size of pumps, the high static levels and deep set pumps mean you will respectively have 251 PSI and 264 PSI back pressure before the CSV’s.  You will need to use a CSV2W1.25T 50/120 Cycle Stop Valves on each well.  The CSV’s will need to be fitted with what we call a “red seat” to be able to handle the high differential pressures.  I would run the 5HP as pump #2, set the CSV to 65 PSI with a 50/70  pressure switch.  Then I would run the 3HP as pump #1, and set the CSV at 70 PSI with a 55/75 pressure switch. 

These CSV2W valves will have a minimum flow of 5 GPM each.  So it would be best to always use more than 5 GPM when irrigating.  But with a large tank or two, flow rates of less than 5 GPM will still not cycle the pump very fast and will work fine.  If you could change the 3HP pump to a 2HP, we could do a minimum flow of 1 GPM, so neither pump will cycle as long as you use more than 1 GPM.

If you test the pumping levels and change out the pumps accordingly, we could use different CSV’s, have less differential pressure, and work at lower flow rates without cycling the pumps.  If you stay with the same pumps, the special made CSV2W’s are the best for that application.  These CSV’s will eliminate the pumps being destroyed by cycling.  The additional backpressure from the CSV’s will keep the pumps form being destroyed by up-thrust.  Removing the above ground check valves that are not needed will eliminate the water hammer, which could be destroying the down-thrust bearings.

Adding the CSV’s will give your pumps a good long life.  Checking the pumping levels and sizing the pumps accordingly could greatly reduce your electric bill.

1218

Pumps, Wells, Tanks, Controls / Re: What type of CSV should I use for each pump and how should I set them up?

« on: October 03, 2013, 07:49:28 PM »

Thanks for asking such good questions on our forum.  I will look up the pump curves and help you design a system that will do everything you want and last a long time.  We would have more options if the CSV's did not have to fit in the well.  Is there anyway you could come off the top of the well with a CSV, and then tee off in two directions to the house and pressure tank?

Also, you have a lot of good info, do you also happen to know the pumping level in the well?

1219

Irrigation / Re: CSV for irrigation pumping from somewhat dirty pond water

« on: September 26, 2013, 07:38:40 AM »

You really needed a jet pump, not a so called “irrigation” pump.  That 2 HP pump will only produce 48 PSI max at shut off, even with zero lift.  It is designed to give about 60 GPM at 30 PSI.  That would run 30, 2 GPM sprinklers, but they won’t spray very far at only 30 PSI.

That pump really doesn’t build enough pressure to work with a CSV, and barely builds enough pressure to even work with a pressure switch.  If 30 PSI is enough to work for you, we could set the CSV at 30 PSI and use a 20/40 pressure switch.  If you are going to use 60 GPM, you will need a 2” model CSV3B2T.

The best thing to do with a low head pump like that is to adjust the pressure switch to something like 26/46, so that pump cannot shut off when running a hose by itself.  But then you have to hope the pump doesn’t wear a little, the water level doesn’t drop a bit, or something else happens that will not let the pump build to 46 to shut off.  Setting the pressure switch so close to the pump deadhead pressure is risky, because if it can’t build to 46 to shut off for some reason, it will nuke the pump.

1220

Irrigation / Re: CSV for irrigation pumping from somewhat dirty pond water

« on: September 25, 2013, 07:36:00 AM »

Hello
There is no problem installing a CSV after the filter, as long as the filter is rated for more pressure than the pump can build.  If you give me the pump info I can tell you how much pressure the filter will see.

However, many of our valves are designed to handle some grit and debris so they can be installed  before the filter if needed.

We match the CSV to the pump size, so if you tell me the pump info we can make this work.

1221

Pumps, Wells, Tanks, Controls / Re: Whole House Filter Advice

« on: September 23, 2013, 07:20:12 AM »

I strongly advise having a thorough water test performed and that way you will know for certain what you are dealing with.

I agree.  It is always best to test the water.  You may not need a filter if you don't see or feel stuff in the water, but there are harmful things that you can't see.  Them something other than a filter is needed.

1222

Pumps, Wells, Tanks, Controls / Re: Water Hammer on Pump Shut off

« on: September 12, 2013, 09:03:10 AM »

I still think you have a check valve sticking in the open position.  Otherwise the water hammer would be completely gone on pump stop.

2 PSI air pressure below cut-in is actually perfect.  We recommend 5 PSI less because most air pressure gauges and water pressure gauges don't read the same as the next gauge.  5 PSI lower just gives more room for pressure gauge error. 

Also an increase in temperature will increase the air pressure in the tank.  So if you air it up to 38 PSI in the morning, later on when the day warms up it could show 42 PSI.  We just use 5-10 PSI less air to be on the safe side.

Also the exact air pressure in the tank is not as important when you have a CSV, as we are only filling the tank at 1 GPM instead of full pump flow, so the draw down of the tank is not as critical.

1223

Pumps, Wells, Tanks, Controls / Re: Pump Reccomendation

« on: August 29, 2013, 08:14:39 AM »

Sometimes they just slip together easily.  Sometimes you have to turn the shaft to get the splines to line up.  Don't force anything, it should go together easily.  Height is important, so make sure not to put washers or anything between the pump and motor.

1224

Valve Tech / Re: Question concerning installation of CSV1A

« on: August 25, 2013, 08:07:51 AM »

Pipe dope is fine as long as excess doesn't end up gumming up the valve.

1225

Pumps, Wells, Tanks, Controls / Re: Pump Reccomendation

« on: August 21, 2013, 07:55:10 AM »

Another question. Grundfos and Franklin Electric both recommend a minimum flow of 13 gpm when used in a 6" well to cool the motor. Since there will be extended periods of lower flow (say 3-4 gpm while showering) would installing the pump in a 4" sleeve be a good idea? In a 4" well the minimum flow for adequate cooling would be 1.2 gpm.

When using a CSV the standard minimum flow for motor cooling is no longer applicable.  The CSV reduces the amp draw of the motor.  This de-rates the motor so that it is even capable of pumping hot water without any problems.  So it takes very little cool water to prevent overheating of a de-rated motor.  Although a CSV has a minimum of 1 GPM, the minimum cooing flow required for a de-rated motor is only 2/10’s of a GPM. 

However, it is important that the minimum 1 GPM flow past the motor before entering the pump, to keep the motor cool.  Therefore a “sleeve”, “shroud”, or “flow inducer” is important, especially when installing the pump is a cistern tank or large body of water.

1226

Pumps, Wells, Tanks, Controls / Re: Pump Reccomendation

« on: August 21, 2013, 07:47:00 AM »

On the product information page it says the CSV1W is adjustable between 50-65 PSI. Is this not correct?
For the 16S15-14 I have found a few sources. One is a dot com for $655 including shipping and would be the Grundfos pump and Grundfos motor. The other is a locale contractor supplier for $694 plus tax and would be the Grundfos pump end and a Franklin motor. Which motor would be better, the Grundfos or the Franklin? Also, I have heard some people have had problems getting there pumps warrantied through Grundfos if purchased through a dot com. Any truth to this? The locale supplier is listed on the Grundfos website as an authorized retailer. While I do not expect to have any problems it never hurts to consider all possibilities.

The CSV1W is adjustable to 65 PSI, but the higher you go from 50 PSI, the more resistance you get from that valve.  That is not the case with the CSV1A as it has more room for a longer spring, and works much better when adjusted above 50 PSI than the CSV1W.

Grundfos pump with a Frankin motor would be my choice.  The best way to get anything warranted is to work through a supplier who sells a lot and therefore has some clout with the manufacturer.

1227

Pumps, Wells, Tanks, Controls / Re: Pump Reccomendation

« on: August 20, 2013, 07:47:49 AM »

The 16S15 is a good pump.  I have installed thousands of them.  The CSV1W is fine at 50 PSI, but if you want more pressure the CSV1A is more adjustable.

1228

Pumps, Wells, Tanks, Controls / Re: Pump Reccomendation

« on: August 17, 2013, 04:29:00 PM »

The SQ/SQE is the only Grundfos pump with plastic impellers.  The standard S series 4” models all have stainless steel impellers that are fixed to the shaft.  National makes a copy of the Grundfos that has SS impellers.  There are many similar pumps made under names like Unitra, Hydroflo, SMP, Wilo, etc.

1229

Pumps, Wells, Tanks, Controls / Re: Pump Reccomendation

« on: August 16, 2013, 07:54:54 AM »

static water level is at 46'. The driller said they measured 20 gpm at 120' and recommended to set the pump there.

Your lift from the well should be figured from at least 120'.  It will only be at 46' static until some water is being used.  120' lift plus (50PSI or 115') for the pressure you need means a total head of 235' before adding in any friction loss.  The beauty of the CSV is that it allows you to install as large a pump as you think you may need, yet still operate like a small pump anytime without hurting anything.  However, the CSV can't make a pump produce MORE water.  So you have to start with a pump that is large enough for the worst case scenarios. 

The Pentair pump won't drop in amps very much.  The Betta Flow is good ig it has the Stainless Steel impellers, but if it is plastic, it is no better than any others.

1230

Pumps, Wells, Tanks, Controls / Re: Pump Reccomendation

« on: August 15, 2013, 07:33:23 AM »

You will need a pump that can do 50 PSI plus the 120' of lift for a total head of 235' or better.  I see a 1.5 HP that can do 18 GPM, but you would need a 2 HP to get 20 GPM.  You run the system at 40/60 PSI and just put pressure reducers on the drip lines.  Also unless you are installing it in the well casing, the CSV1A would be a better choice.  You can get the CSV1A in the Pside-Kick kit which comes with a 4.5 gallon tank and everything you need for $399.