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Pumps, Wells, Tanks, Controls / Re: Need Advice on Lake Water System
« Last post by Cary Austin on July 28, 2020, 03:58:13 PM »
It sounds like the adjustment bolt on the CSV is tightened too much.  As long as you are using more than 1 GPM the pump should not cycle at all.  If using less than 1 GPM it should cycle slowly, not fast, like on for 2 minutes and off for 2 minutes, even with the 4.5 gallon tank.

Those Gator pumps don't usually build enough pressure to work with even a 30/50 pressure switch.  With the switch at 20/40 the CSV should hold 30 PSI while using as little as 2 GPM.
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Pumps, Wells, Tanks, Controls / Need Advice on Lake Water System
« Last post by bill447 on July 28, 2020, 08:26:18 AM »
I have a PK1A tank kit being fed by a Goulds IrriGator on a dock on a lake.  The system works fine for normal irrigation usage.  However, the pump cycles rapidly when the hose is turned on just slightly or a small drain applied (like the drip line to the pool slide or a mister). Is the solution to replace the 4.4 gallon tank with a larger one?
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Reviews / Re: CSV Control While Water Tower being serviced
« Last post by Cary Austin on July 27, 2020, 12:38:37 PM »
The following is an email I got from a guy who paints and repairs water towers.  He normally uses pressure relief valves on fire hydrants and lets the excess water run down the street while he is working on the towers.  He had calculated that they would waste $40,000.00 worth of water while he painted the tower in Hooks, TX.  He found us on the Internet.  I guaranteed it to work so he tried it.  This system does not even have a little 80 gallon tank.  The CSV’s on those two pumps just feed the right amount of water to the city.  Those pumps with the CSV’s can deliver as little as 5 GPM or as much as 1600 GPM to the city at constant pressure, without any kind of water tower or tank.

Re;  Hooks, Texas
Cary, the valves are working perfectly.  They had a major water leak yesterday and the valves performed as planned.  They have not had any complaints about water pressure at all.  I wish I would have known about these years ago. The city personal and the engineers are very impressed.  I have also included pics of the instillation.
Thanks,

Carey Gould

PROTECTIVE LININGS & COATINGS, INC.
15156 Country Place
Alexander, Arkansas 72002
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Reviews / Re: CSV Control While Water Tower being serviced
« Last post by Cary Austin on July 27, 2020, 12:37:18 PM »
Credit: HOOKS, TX Coating removal, sandblasting, and applying primer begin a 1970s tank repair.
In this first story on water tower refurbishment, the author covers the steps a town took to prepare the water tower for refurbishment and the considerations the town faced with the project.  In Part 2 of this article, we’ll look at the application of high tech coatings to ensure a long service life.
What do you do when you’re a one-water-tower town, struggling on a shoestring budget and a routine inspection by state officials hands you a report card of multiple, and expensive, repair violations. You’ve got a water tower refurbishment project on your hands.
Donald Buchanan, town administrator of Hooks, TX, a community of about 4,000 located fifteen miles west of Texarkana on the Arkansas border in northeast Texas, describes his dilemma.
“We have a water tower inspection every year and we got handed a list of things to fix. Fortunately, we had passed a bond issue to do water and street repairs, but the problem with the water tower was a big one.”
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Buchanan says it’s likely that “nobody had been inside the water tower since the day it was built in 1968,” but that now, there were cracks and deterioration and the needed repairs would cost the town a hefty bill in citations if left undone.
“Since we only have one water tower, we had to figure out how to deliver water to our people, and still fix the water tower. We can’t turn off water for the three to six months that we needed to do the repairs. The one idea was to put a pump on and then divert the water to a tank, but have it attached to a fire hydrant where a pop-off valve would release pressure when it got too high.”
But this was not a good solution, Buchanan says, “because if we did that, we would lose about $30,000 of water. We have to buy our water from Texarkana and can’t afford to waste it.”
Buchanan says their engineer then heard about what is called a cycle-stop valve, from Russell Hicks of Induron Protective Lining and Coatings, the company whose coatings allowed for a very successful water tower repair. Hicks explains the scenario the town faced at the outset.
“Small town funds are tight and when you take a tank out of service to rehab, it’s a big production.”
Hicks says the town had last rehabbed the 300,000 gallon pedesphere tank back in the 1970s so a major facelift was in order.
How to Keep the Water On
“What we were going to do involved a complete removal of all coatings, then blast it to white metal on the outside, and then blast the inside as well. Then, coat the inside and outside with primer and finish coats. But, before we did anything we had to figure out how to divert the water and provide service. I had run across this variable-frequency device (VFD) called a cycle-stop valve which actually works so well you don’t even need a water tower.”
Hicks says he brought the innovative technology to Kiron Browning of A.L. Franks Engineering who was already working on the project, and Browning introduced the idea to Buchanan and his staff. Beyond the concern for continuous public drinking water supply, the town and engineers also required that there would be enough water for fire suppression during the rehab time. Hicks describes why the cycle-stop valves were the perfect solution to ensure all water needs would be met.
“I explained that typically, when you use other VFDs to supply water to the end-user without the use of gravity—like in a water tower—these devices can’t manage pressure changes that well, and this can cause water hammer, and blow out pipes. This cycle-stop valve is a continuously regulating device that prevents this. So we installed two of them for the aboveground water holding tank. This diverting process not only saved water, but worked so well nobody in the town knew there was anything different going on with their water delivery.”
Hicks says these valves, which continuously regulate pressure and amperage, were under $11,000 to purchase and install. They not only allowed work to begin, but saved hundreds of thousands of gallons of water and up to $40,000 in water waste costs.
In Part 2 of this article on water tower refurbishment, we’ll look at the application of high tech coatings to ensure a long service life.
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Applications / Re: Pumping from a Cistern
« Last post by Cary Austin on July 25, 2020, 08:02:50 PM »
That pump can do a max dead of 240', which is about 103 psi.  2.31 feet equals 1 psi.
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Applications / Re: Pumping from a Cistern
« Last post by MikeInTN on July 24, 2020, 12:20:11 PM »
So my new pump arrived today.  It's the Hallmark MA0460X-9A.  My last concern is backpressure on the pipe between the pump and the CSV since it will be buried in a trench and not easily accessible.  Would you mind telling me how to calculate the backpressure on the pipe?  I don't know if this is too little/much information. 
Elevation from cistern to house is 53'. 
Total length of 1 1/2" PVC pipe is 350'.
Pump is 1hp, 230V, 5.8amps, 240' max head for open water tanks, 25 gpm (max), 13 gpm (rated)
The CSV I am looking at is the Pside-kick kit with a 10 gallon tank, 40-60 switch, 50psi setting.
My apologies for so many questions.
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Applications / Re: Pumping from a Cistern
« Last post by Cary Austin on July 21, 2020, 11:52:18 AM »
You are figuring correctly.  But 66 PSI max is just too close to work with a 40/60 switch.  Yes it would work fine at 30/50, but I don't think you will like the pressure.  I didn't know that other pump was available, but yes because of your 53' rise in elevation that pump would be better and work fine at 40/60.
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Applications / Re: Pumping from a Cistern
« Last post by MikeInTN on July 21, 2020, 11:47:15 AM »
Cary,
Thanks so much for your response.  I have some updated information regarding the pump height from the cistern.  Maybe not the best method, but I used 4 different devices [2 cell phones using triangulation and 2 Fitbits measuring floors climbed] and got an average pump height of 52.9’.  Using your previous calculations with my pump with a max head of 207’ (or 89psi), my psi lost would be 52.9’/2.31 = 22.9, with 66.1 psi available at the house.  Is that correct?

I’m not sure if I will be able to return the pump I just bought.  If not, would it be acceptable to use with a 30-50 pressure switch and a CSV setting of 40?  Would the adjusted numbers allow use of a 40-60 pressure switch, or is it still too marginal?  If I can return it, I’m looking at a slightly smaller Hallmark MA0460X-9A pump with max head of 240’.  Would that be a better option?

MikeInTN
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Applications / Re: Pumping from a Cistern
« Last post by Cary Austin on July 20, 2020, 03:57:27 PM »
Hi, I’m new to the forum after lurking for some time.  I spoke with someone very helpful in your office last week – Sam – but have a few follow-up questions I wanted to post and thought it might prove useful to others who may encounter a similar situation.  After a couple of failed attempts with low producing wells, I am having a spring developed that produces ~7gpm.  This spring will be feeding a 1200-gallon cistern buried a few feet below the source of the spring.  I purchased a Hallmark Industries MA0414X-7A [230V 2-wire] submersible pump.  Pump will be mounted in a 4” flow inducer sleeve and mounted horizontally on top of two 4” PVC pipes as I’ve seen pictured elsewhere here on your forum.

This set-up, initially, will be supplying a single-story home located ~70 feet above the cistern, with a horizontal distance of [I’m guessing] 350 feet.  The person developing the spring and installing the tank is burying 1½” PVC and 10-3 wire.  I could’ve used 10-2 but I didn’t know at the time what pump I would be using.  I want to use the PK1A Pressure Tank Kit with the 10-gallon tank, 40-60 pressure switch, with the CSV setting of 50psi.  The pressure tank and CSV will be located at the house, and not at the cistern so that I can weather/critter-proof them. 

Most of the discussions posted here relate to using wells as the water supply, so I’m not sure how things like maximum head and backpressure come into play when pumping from a cistern.  Could you comment on this set up?   That pump builds a max head of 207' or 89 PSI.  You are going to lose 30 PSI of that in the 70' of elevation from the cistern to the house.  That means you will only have 59 PSI available at the house.  That won't work with a 40/60 switch.  You can just barely do a 30/50 switch setting with that pressure.  With 70' of elevation after the cistern it is like having a 70' deep well, and you need a smaller GPM series pump that can produce more pressure.  Those pumps work fine when the cistern is at house level.

Also, I’ll need to install a 1¼” nipple, check valve, and 90* elbow on the pump, and I’m curious what you used in your example picture [the one with the horizontal installation] – brass, stainless, galvanized?  Any of those will work. Make sure to use a metal, spring loaded, check valve and if you use any galvanized nipples or fittings be sure and wrap them completely with electric tape.


On the flow inducer sleeve, would 4” pipe give enough flow around the motor for cooling?  My pump is listed as having a max diameter of 3.8”, but I think that includes the bump out for the wiring.  Is SDR35 safe for drinking water or would you use PVC in that case?  PVC pipe is PVC pipe no matter if labeled for drinking water or not.  Yes that should include the cable guard, but even so will have plenty or room for over 25 GPM flow.

Do you use or recommend anything to center the pump in the sleeve, such as bolts spaced at 120*?  Anything else I should be concerned about? Wont hurt to just lay the pump in the sleeve.  No centering is needed.

Thanks in advance,

MikeInTN   
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Applications / Pumping from a Cistern
« Last post by MikeInTN on July 20, 2020, 12:54:28 PM »
Hi, I’m new to the forum after lurking for some time.  I spoke with someone very helpful in your office last week – Sam – but have a few follow-up questions I wanted to post and thought it might prove useful to others who may encounter a similar situation.  After a couple of failed attempts with low producing wells, I am having a spring developed that produces ~7gpm.  This spring will be feeding a 1200-gallon cistern buried a few feet below the source of the spring.  I purchased a Hallmark Industries MA0414X-7A [230V 2-wire] submersible pump.  Pump will be mounted in a 4” flow inducer sleeve and mounted horizontally on top of two 4” PVC pipes as I’ve seen pictured elsewhere here on your forum.

This set-up, initially, will be supplying a single-story home located ~70 feet above the cistern, with a horizontal distance of [I’m guessing] 350 feet.  The person developing the spring and installing the tank is burying 1½” PVC and 10-3 wire.  I could’ve used 10-2 but I didn’t know at the time what pump I would be using.  I want to use the PK1A Pressure Tank Kit with the 10-gallon tank, 40-60 pressure switch, with the CSV setting of 50psi.  The pressure tank and CSV will be located at the house, and not at the cistern so that I can weather/critter-proof them. 

Most of the discussions posted here relate to using wells as the water supply, so I’m not sure how things like maximum head and backpressure come into play when pumping from a cistern.  Could you comment on this set up?  Also, I’ll need to install a 1¼” nipple, check valve, and 90* elbow on the pump, and I’m curious what you used in your example picture [the one with the horizontal installation] – brass, stainless, galvanized?  On the flow inducer sleeve, would 4” pipe give enough flow around the motor for cooling?  My pump is listed as having a max diameter of 3.8”, but I think that includes the bump out for the wiring.  Is SDR35 safe for drinking water or would you use PVC in that case?  Do you use or recommend anything to center the pump in the sleeve, such as bolts spaced at 120*?  Anything else I should be concerned about?

Thanks in advance,

MikeInTN     
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