Author Topic: Time to replace worn out system and want to make it right this time.  (Read 540 times)

Zoomschwortz

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A little over 20 years ago I replaced my old pump with a larger 1hp pump and added an extra pressure tank and it worked much better except for draining the well and shutting off the pump in 15-20 minutes when watering the yard.

My well is, or was 65 feet deep when I last changed the pump. At present time I'm getting 4 gallons per minute at the outside faucet and cannot take a shower if someone is using the hose outside. At 4 gallons per minute I can still drain the well in the summer, but since the pump is worn out it takes 20-30 minutes now.

My goal is to get at least 10 gpm but 20 gpm would be fantastic for watering the gardens, 20 fruit trees, an acre of lawn and still being able to wash clothes and dishes etc in the house.

I'm guessing that I should drop the pump to 1/2 hp so the well can keep up and use a 500 gallon or larger holding tank and then have a larger pump in the holding tank to feed the house.

I love the idea of the CSV, pump and small pressure tank, but in the winter we have been known to lose power for 2 or 3 days and the two large pressure tanks have been able to keep the toilet working while the power is out. Is a larger pressure tank out of the question for me?

My land is level, all water is on ground floor, house is about 100' from pump house and is being fed by 2" PVC line.

What do I need to buy to get this right the first time? I do like the idea of fairly constant water pressure no matter how much water is being used.

Thank you for your time and consideration.
Ken

Cary Austin

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Re: Time to replace worn out system and want to make it right this time.
« Reply #1 on: July 10, 2019, 07:32:32 AM »
If your well only makes 4 GPM and you need to use more than that, a storage tank and booster pump will be needed.  Even then you have to store enough water to irrigate the amount you want.  You can figure 4 GPM entering the storage tank while you are taking out 10 GPM.  So the tank needs to be large enough to make up 6 GPM for as long as you need to water.

You can use a CSV with any size tank you want.  But counting on a pressure tank for water during times when the power goes off is not good.  The pressure tank is full when the pressure is at 60 and empty when the pressure is at 40.  You have no way to make sure the tank is pumped up to 60 before the power goes off.  Murphy's Law says the tank will always be at about 42 and almost empty when the power goes off.  If your tank has let you flush a few times during power outages in the past, you were just very lucky. 

The larger the pressure tank the longer you have to wait to see the strong constant shower pressure from the CSV.  A larger 20 gallon size pressure tank only holds 5 gallons of water anyway.  So, I just keep a 5 gallon water bottle in the closet.  That way I for sure have 5 gallons to use when the power is off.

Zoomschwortz

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Re: Time to replace worn out system and want to make it right this time.
« Reply #2 on: July 10, 2019, 11:32:26 AM »
Cary, I want to thank you for your help.

I have been thinking about what you’ve said and I believe that I have come up with a remedy for when the power goes off.
I believe that a 12v RV type water pump could easily keep up with bathroom and hand washing needs and I could just keep a deep cycle battery on a Battery Tender charger in the pump house.

I have spent the last few hours reading about your products and I believe that this will be the best way for me to go.

Some more information about my situation.
My water table fluctuates quite a bit between summer and winter. Twenty+ years ago when I was monitoring my well much closer, I noticed that my water level in the winter was as high as 6 feet from ground level and in the summer I saw it drop to 20 feet from ground level, but it is quite possible that it even went much lower.

Because of tannin and iron in my well, I have a Water Doctor filter system that has been working amazingly well for me. Yesterday I talked to Water Doctor about the possibility of changing from the pressure tanks to a 500-1200 gallon holding tank and wanted to have the unfiltered Water go directly to the holding tank and from there have 1 line going to the filter system and then the house and another line dedicated unfiltered line going outside faucets for watering yard and gardens.
Water Doctor recommends that the water should be filtered before going to the holding tank, which should greatly reduce the need for cleaning the holding tank.

Other than the extra cost of filtering the water used for lawn and gardens, do you see any problem in filtering all of the water? I imagine that there would be a benefit in having any restrictions in the filtering process before going to the holding tank instead of between the holding tank and the house.

I really do not know exactly what Tom my well produces, but I have reason to believe that it fluctuates from season to season and unfortunately the lowest volume appears to be when I need the greatest amount of water.

I read that the CSV back pressure actually reduces amperage draw and I assume gpm.
Would there be any benefit in staying with a 1hp pump and adjusting the CSV to assure that I do not overwhelm my wells gpm or would it be better to drop to a 1/2hp pump?

Thanks
Ken

Cary Austin

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Re: Time to replace worn out system and want to make it right this time.
« Reply #3 on: July 10, 2019, 12:11:45 PM »
Don't see any problem filtering the water.  The CSV will make he 3/4HP act like a 1/2HP, but can't make a 1/2HP work like a 3/4HP when you need more water.  With a CSV the size of pump does not determine the draw from the well, the amount of water you are using does.

Zoomschwortz

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Re: Time to replace worn out system and want to make it right this time.
« Reply #4 on: July 10, 2019, 05:19:43 PM »
Trying to educate myself on pumps, so I went to Lowe’s where they had 1/2hp, 3/4hp and 1hp pumps, all rated at 10gpm. Granted, information was scant and showed at what depth each pump would pump 10gpm, but gave no indication of what gpm at shallower depths. Looks like I need more education.

Let’s say that a 1/2hp pump can pump more gpm than the well can produce, is there any benefit, such as pump life, amperage draw, etc in going with a larger pump?

Am I correct in thinking that as long as my well is producing 1gpm or more, I can dial the CSV down until my well will keep up with the pump?

My desire is to have as many gpm as is safely possible in the house. Am I wrong in thinking that psi is the determining factor in what the plumbing will safely handle?

What psi would you recommend for copper plumbing?

Thanks again
Ken

Cary Austin

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Re: Time to replace worn out system and want to make it right this time.
« Reply #5 on: July 11, 2019, 08:21:42 AM »
For every foot of water above the pump you have at least 1.5 gallons of water stored in the well.  So, if you have 40’ above the pump you have 60 gallons stored you can use as fast or slow as you want.  You can pump 10 GPM for 6 minutes, 5 GPM for 12 minutes, or take a 3 GPM shower for 20 minutes.  The well usually has time to recover between uses.  This way you need a pump large enough to supply the what you need, even though the well only makes 1 GPM on the long term.

But if you don’t have any stored water in the well, then using a small pump and a 1 GPM Dole valve will let you put 1440 gallons per day in a storage tank.  Then with a booster pump you can use water anyway you want.

Zoomschwortz

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Re: Time to replace worn out system and want to make it right this time.
« Reply #6 on: July 12, 2019, 05:28:10 PM »
Can I reduce the volume of water being pumped  out of the well by adjusting the CSV?
 Thanks
Ken

TKB4

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Re: Time to replace worn out system and want to make it right this time.
« Reply #7 on: July 12, 2019, 11:34:30 PM »
No , the CSV maintains the pressure it is set at once the pressure switch turns on and the water pressure rises to its setting as long as at least one gallon per minute is flowing .   So, if your pump can pump 10 gallons per minute without a CSV valve at its pressure setting  it can also pump 10 gallons per minute with the CSV but you cannot adjust the CSV to limit the flow to say 2 gallons per minute.   That actually is the beauty of the CSV it allows constant pressure but variable volume of flow.

Cary may be able to explain differently


Zoomschwortz

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Re: Time to replace worn out system and want to make it right this time.
« Reply #8 on: July 13, 2019, 03:49:32 PM »
Thank you TKB4,
I must be missing something, because I’m having trouble understanding how this can be.

Is the CSV only maintaining the pressure between the pump and the CSV and not the pressure between the CSV and the house?

Without a CSV, when my pump shuts off at 60psi, my volume of water in the house is higher than when my tank pressure is 40psi. Without a pressure switch shutting off the pump, my pump is capable of producing more than 60psi and I would guess a higher volume of water.

Let’s say I had a pump that produces 10gpm at the faucet in my house and it is capable of exceeding 60psi. Now let’s say I change nothing but adding a CSV that is set at 30psi. How many gpm will I now have at the faucet in the house and what psi would I have in the house?

I thank you for your time and help. I really appreciate it.
Ken

Cary Austin

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Re: Time to replace worn out system and want to make it right this time.
« Reply #9 on: July 14, 2019, 09:40:03 AM »
The bolt on the CSV adjust the pressure only.  You determine how much the pump is producing by how many faucets you have open.  The CSV knows how much water you are using by the pressure.  When the CSV is set to 30 PSI, you will have 30 PSI in the house no matter if you have one faucet or three faucets open.  When the CSV sees the pressure drop to 29, it know you opened another faucet and it opens up to give you more water.  When the CSV sees 31 PSI, it knows you have closed a faucet, and it closes to give you less water.  It is all the time tying to maintain the 30 PSI you set it for.

Have you not seen this video?
https://vimeo.com/248374194

Zoomschwortz

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Re: Time to replace worn out system and want to make it right this time.
« Reply #10 on: July 14, 2019, 05:21:44 PM »
Thank you Cary,
I will definitely need a booster pump and CSV between the holding tank and the house, but between the submersible pump in the well and the filter system that will go to the holding tank, I will need something that is easily adjustable to control the volume of water.

Do you think that a gate valve before a CSV would work well for adjusting the volume? I want to get as much volume as possible out of the well and into the holding tank without overwhelming the replenishment of the well. I’m thinking that I can keep closing a gate valve until the Cycle Sensor no longer turns off the pump.

Thanks again
Ken
« Last Edit: July 14, 2019, 05:24:00 PM by Zoomschwortz »

Cary Austin

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Re: Time to replace worn out system and want to make it right this time.
« Reply #11 on: July 14, 2019, 07:29:50 PM »
I don't understand.  If all the well does is fill the storage tank you should not need a CSV, pressure tank/pressure switch.  A gate valve would work to adjust the flow, but a ball valve would be better.  You can adjust it to run a long time before the Cycle Sensor shuts it off from running dry, or you can let it run wide open and let the Cycle Sensor turn it off and on until it hits the float switch.  Usually something in the middle of that is best with just some restriction using a ball valve.

Zoomschwortz

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Re: Time to replace worn out system and want to make it right this time.
« Reply #12 on: July 14, 2019, 08:03:28 PM »
I did not realize that I could get by with only running a ball valve and Cycle Sensor between the pump and filter system without using a pressure tank and switch, that would save me some money.

I am thinking that the holding tank would need a high volume pump and PK1A to feed the house, gardens and yard.

Thank you again for your help.
Ken
« Last Edit: July 14, 2019, 08:28:06 PM by Zoomschwortz »

Cary Austin

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Re: Time to replace worn out system and want to make it right this time.
« Reply #13 on: July 15, 2019, 07:20:51 AM »
Yeah something like this.