Cycle Stop Valves
Pump System Questions and Answers => Pumps, Wells, Tanks, Controls => Topic started by: hdude on June 12, 2018, 12:45:42 PM
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Just installed new cycle sensor and figure I have a problem with the rate the pressure tank fills, so far the best I can get is 20 to 25 seconds when shutting off demand to pump shutting off. Should I get an additional storage tank and/or are there adjustments I can make to prolong the time the pump runs after demand is shut off. Seriously, when a toilet is flushed - the pump kicks in and only runs about 1/2 minute - probably due to the size pump. If I bump up the CSV, the pressure tank fills even faster. If I drop the CSV, then it starts to impact the pressure I would like to otherwise have.
System: CSV1A @48psi at the well head (w/3/4" spigot opened fully).
2HP Franklin Motor w/ 20GPM Sta-rite Pump.
10 gallon (PSIkick) pressure tank - @40psi when empty.
Pressure Switch set to 42/62.
With minimal GPM (pump running), I have about a 4psi drop from the pump to the household.
Wen running about 7-8GPM through my GSHP (geoThermal) I have 32psi at the house and 50psi at the pressure switch.
CSV is set to 65PSI at 2GPM. Pressure switch is 50/70. Tank PSI is 48
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I have almost the exact same set up at my house and I get 1 minute and 15 seconds of run time. A 3/4 spigot running wide open is probably too much flow to adjust the CSV. So if you set it at 48 PSI with that spigot running, the CSV is probably set more like 52-54 PSI when running only 2 GPM. I don't think you want to adjust the CSV down, so turn the pressure switch up. Tighten the large adjustment in the pressure switch about two full turns to the right and get it up to about 50/70 setting. Then up the air charge in the tank to about 45-48 PSI, and you will get a lot longer pump run times.
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Set to 50/70 and tank at 47. I am getting about 10-15 seconds more tank fill time.
For now I am setting the Cycle Sensor to 25 seconds from 15 because before it would "recyc" sometimes after only a setting of 20 seconds.
Question(s)
1.) Is the Cycle Sensor displaying amps? My Cycle Sensor shows pump running @ 8.2 amps (@gpm) down to 7.8 when demand shuts off and as tank fills. My solar logging software shows the pump running 2.4kW at 240 volts (kW/V =10amps), down to 2.2kW till tank fills.
2.) When the pump stops, the Cycle Sensor usually drops to .01 / .02 which is normal. Several Times is only drops to .6 and then to .02 next cycle. Should I be worried?
Notes on Installation:
1.) The Cycle Sensor module holes do not align with hold in NEMA box. Just as well - because using the knockout on inner bottom would prevent the sensor from fitting to the holes.
2.) There is no ground lug. My wiring has ground through the breaker box, to the pressure switch to the control box to the pump. I just used a twist tie for grounding through the Cycle Sensor.
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If you are still not getting 1 minute of run time the CSV can be adjusted down a few PSI and fill more of the tank at 1 GPM. But if the CSV is holding 60 PSI or less when using one kitchen sink, it should take a minute to fill the tank to 70.
It is normal for the Cycle Sensor to read 0.1-1.2 or so when the pump is off. It is really reading stray voltage on the line. It actually displays amps times the power factor, which is very similar to watts, as you can see.
I tried to show on the Cycle Sensor installation video to use the self drilling screws included to make new holes in the metal back plate where needed. Also you can ground to one of the screws in the metal back plate if you want instead of just twist locking the grounds together.
Since you are on solar you may want to look at a different pump end for that motor someday. Where that Pentair pump is causing the amps to drop from 8.2 to 7.8 when the demand decreases, a pump made like a Grundfos brand would drop amps from 8.2 to 4.0.
PS; Also want to set the Cycle Sensor for about 5 seconds less than it takes to fill the tank when no other water is on.
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you may want to look at a different pump end for that motor someday...
Yea - . Just installed all the CycleStopValves bells and whistles (CSV, FlowInducer, Tank, CycleSensor) - I am hoping that "someday" will not be in my lifetime.
I probably could have asked "what's the best pump and motor combo" for my needs and done it right. The question about "best" I've seen asked my times on the forums, but generally see the response that Goulds/Pentair are OK and can last with a CSV. I see Grundfos are generally recommended but they are much more a mystery and have various caveats? I avoided VFD and went with what was already installed on my research as well as recommendation of my pump guy. (also wanted to get water flowing again ASAP)
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use the self drilling screws included to make new holes in the metal back plate where needed
I didn't realize the back plate was plastic coated metal. All the same, I didn't have any problems mounting. As far as setting the CycleSensor up - just followed the instructions and kept refining the settings along with the pressure adjustments we discussed to get the run times up.
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The Pentair pump will be fine with the CSV, it is just not as efficient at low flow as some other brands. You did good!
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Still having problems. Flush Toliet (1.6gpm per flush). Pump Kicks usually kicks on. Maybe 40 seconds run time. Had two flushes within a couple minutes this morning - both kicked on pump. Yesterday the CycleSensor shutdown when cycling was set @35 seconds. Current setting: CSV1A @52 while running 6-8GPM in house (130+ foot away and up 10ft 1-1/4 lines). Pressure Switch @ 50-70. 10 gallon Tank @49psi.
Could I be having a problem with the CSV passing as much as 2GPM when demand stops? Something wrong with my pressures or settings?
I am about to bite the bullet and buy an additional tank; probably 20 gallon. With the CSV1A and Pressure Switch setting, I don't think I will have any noticeable fluctuations (shower) as the pressure tank draws down to start the pump.
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A 10 gallon tank holds about 2.2 gallons of water. So even if the CSV is passing 2 GPM, it should take longer to fill the tank. Setting the CSV at 52 while using 6-8 GPM means the CSV is probably set at 55-57 or so while using 2 GPM. So it is only filling the last half of the 2 gallon draw tank at reduced flow, but means you should still be getting 60 seconds of run time.
Try running your hose at whatever flow rate is needed to keep the pressure at 68-69 PSI, without letting the pump shut off. At a steady 68 PSI you are letting out the amount that the CSV bypasses to fill the tank. Measure the amount coming out of the hose and you will know the tank fill rate from the CSV.
Also measure with the hose and bucket how much water you get out of the tank before the pump comes on. It could be the tank is not holding 2.2 gallons as it should for some reason.
If the CSV is bypassing too much flow or the tank is not delivering 2 gallons of draw, I can replace them. You shouldn't need a larger tank.
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Couldn't get a flow to run @68psi without shutting off. (did you mean 58psi?)
Pressure Tank drained about 2.2 gallons. Pressure switch 50/70
Set a hose at the pressure tank manifold and throttled it to 2GPM. Checked the CSV at the well and it was 68psi.
Turned down the CSV to 60psi (opened CSV over 1 full turn from 68 - doesn't seem right - minor adjustments of a couple psi were 1/4 to 1/2 turn).
With the CSV @60psi - tank hose @2GPM - it still took only 35 seconds to fill pressure tank after pump shutoff.
With the CSV @60psi - w/GSHP running (6-8GPM?) - CSV pressure is down to 40psi, house manifold is 20psi. Shower only flows 1GPM.
After pump shuts off @70-psi (Pressure drops some). I checked the 3 gauges @CSV=66psi, @pressure tank=66psi, at house manifold=66psi
Doesn't sound like constant pressure to me. (before CSV guage dropped from 68psi @2GPM to 52psi @ 6-8GPM - Now from 60psi@ 2GPM to 40psi @ 6-8GPM ).
I would like the flow at least where it was (CSV @68psi and HVAC @30psi and shower running @2GPM or better).
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If you can't get a hose open enough to keep the pressure at 68, yes 68 without the pump shutting off, then the CSV is set too high (too far to the right / clockwise). The tank has the 2.2, so it is good, and your pressure switch is 50/70 also good.
Now while running 3 GPM somewhere after the CSV, adjust the CSV to hold a constant 58 PSI. So then it should hold 58 constant for a shower, and 48 constant if are using the full 20 GPM your pump can produce. And yes the adjustment bolt doesn't need much as 1 full turn is 14 PSI change.
If you want 68 PSI while running the heat pump and a shower at the same time, you will have to adjust the CSV to hold about 75 PSI at 3 GPM flow. To set the CSV at 75, the pressure switch will need to be turned up first to about 65/85. With the pressure switch at 65/85 the cap on the PRV valve will need to be removed and tighten the adjustment so the pressure relief doesn't leak, and the tank will need about 60 PSI air. The higher the pressure switch setting, the less water the tank holds, but you should still get close to 1 minute of run time after turning off all the faucets.
A lot of the last stuff you posted doesn't make sense to me, especially why the house is 20 PSI when the CSV is at 40?
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It seems to me that my CSV is not delivering constant pressure. The only benefit I am seeing from the CSV is the system does not cycle.
The 2HP Pump (L20P4HS) is rated to produce minimum of 20 GPM @60psi for 150 lift.
The pump is set@ 140' and my static is about 70' (I'm allowing for an additional 10' lift to house 150' away).
With CSV set to 68psi @2GPM - Then turn on GSHP using 6-8GPM - the pressure at CSV gauge drops to 50psi (I am only getting 30psi at the house)
With CSV set to 60psi @2GPM - Then turn on GSHP using 6-8GPM - the pressure at CSV guage drops to 42psi. (I am only getting 20psi at the house)
With CSV set to 60psi @2GPM - Using only a faucet in house - I show about 56psi at the house
What explains why the pressure at the CSV drops almost 18PSI when the flow goes from zero to 6-8GPM
I'm perplexed about the pressure drop to house, but once I get constant pressure at the CSV - I can adjust the pressure to what I want. Or is the CSV working properly?
Note: Well and supply to house are 1-1/4". At the house the supply pipe is reduced to two(2) 3/4" PEX lines running about 25' to manifold. The GSHP is then feed through a 1/2" copper and 6.5GPM Taco Geo Valve (although I think I am getting more flow than that). I have monitored for leaks - none pressure holds steady when not in use. Not many bends or couplings or other restrictions.
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There is a chart for the reduced pressure loss in the CSV1A here.
https://cyclestopvalves.com/pages/csv1a-specifications
But you should only have about a 5 PSI loss at 10 GPM, and to loose 18 PSI you would need to be flowing 25 GPM.
At 10 GPM there should only be 5 PSI friction loss in the CSV1A. Your 2HP, L20 pump should also be doing about 25 GPM at that 80' head and 68 PSI pressure. So the only thing that makes sense to me is that your heat pump is using about 25 GPM. And except for the Delta T or temperature difference, the heat pump will work with 6-8 GPM or 25 GPM and not know the difference. Can you check the dump rate after the heat pump?
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The GSHP discharge after 150' of 3/4" black tubing at a 3/4" hose bib tested @5GPM. The TACO valve is rated at 6.5GPM and I'm giving it all it wants. So probably some loss of flow where I am able to test. I have a 20 degree temperature delta (65in 85out). My 5 ton GSHP system really needs more flow (10GPM+) as temperatures out here are 105plus the last few days and it barely keep the house at 76 degrees.
I can adjust the CSV to a higher pressure which the pump can/has provided. The CSV just does not seem to be delivering constant pressure under increasing demand, at what ever pressure I've set it to. I can work around this by setting the CSV to 70, pressure switch to 55/75 and have good enough pressure in the house and get 40psi available while using GSHP somewhere at 6GPM. But I don't think this is how the CSV should be working (or not).
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Cross Check: GSHP off. Sequentially turn on faucets in the house. GPM flow test @ 2GPM at each faucet and flow didn't diminish that much as faucets were added. Gauges are both new and identical.
Faucet# PSI@CSV PSI@House Manifold
1 2GPM 65 58
2 4GPM (+2) 58 44
3 6GPM (+2) 53 35
4 8GPM (+2) 50 30
5 13GPM (+5) 46 ? Turned on 3/4 Drain Bib @ tank on full (5+GPM est)
Note: When only GSHP is running house PSI is at 30 PSI - so the above confirms it is running @ 8GPM. (Also per the CycleSensor amps below)
Also: I noticed that Amps were about 7.6@2GPM, 7.8@4GPM 8.0@6GPM 8.2@8GPM and 10.1@13GPM.
To me it looks like the CSV is not working correctly to maintain "constant" pressure. CSV1A spec says pressure falloff should be 5PSI for 10GPM. This test shows I have plenty of flow available.
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I agree something isn't right. But I more think it is a pump problem than a CSV problem. When you open enough water to get the pressure 5-10 PSI below the set pressure of the CSV, the CSV just turns into a piece of pipe and should not restrict the flow. Is there anyway you can install a 160-200 PSI gauge before the CSV somewhere? I am showing that when you open up 18 GPM, there should still be 95 PSI on the inlet side of the CSV, so the CSV has something to work with. But if the pressure on the inlet side of the CSV is only about 58-60 at that point, then it is a pump or well problem. Either the pump is not putting out as much as it should or the water level in the well is really at about 140' instead of 80'.
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If the well was at 140, (pump is set at 140), I'd be dry and the CycleSensor would trigger. This morning, after cooling off and the GSHP running only 1/2 the time (15 mins on 15 minutes off), the PSI always is 30psi in the house at start and at the time it stops - the pressure stays the same continually. During the day with the GSHP running continuously. it still provides water, allbeit at 30PSI. The well report said that the well tested at 39 GPM from static of 70 to 130 (not enough info to determine if 39GPM was the actual replenishment rate).
I am going to try running the GSHP (8GPM) and opening enough hose bibs (4-5 each) to see how much water the well will produce before triggering the CycleSensor if it is going dry. But yesterdays test showed that my amps went UP as I added demand.
Putting on a gauge to measure the pump before the CSV is possible, but will be a least 1 week for me to get fittings, gauge and make the change. I think it will be easier to replace the CSV and putting a "T" before it at the same time. Can we arrange a replacement for a test? I do have plans to purchase an additional CSV for my aunts well next door if we can get my system working right.
IIRC, I think I got constant pressure the first few days after installing the CSV, but this was before having better tools to monitor the system.
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I can send you a new gut pack (A-Cart) to drop in the CSV1A. That will me much easier than replacing the valve body. But I don't think it will change anything. That is not a normal problem for a CSV. If a CSV fails the pump just goes to cycling on and off. A CSV causing a restriction would be very unusual. I don't even know how it could even do that.
Also a 2HP pump should be pulling 12.8 to 13.2 amps when running a large flow like 18-20 GPM, while 10.1 amps is the max you have seen. I still think it is a pump problem. But call Corye at 806-885-4445 and she will send you a new gut pack (A-Cart) to try anyway.
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Full Blown Test
I opened 10 bibs plus ran the GSHP. Pressure @CSV dropped to 12PSI and amps went to 12.5.
Measured flow -
1.) 8GPM @ Tank
2.)12GPM @ distribution bib after tank T" (4 bibs - @4GPM+4GPM+3GPM+2GPM)
3.) 8 GPM 4 Hoses 100' from pump and close to house (@ almost no pressure)
4.) 3 GPM GSHP (@almost no pressure)
Total = 30 GPM @ 12PSI for 20 minutes (which seems more than the pump should produce @ 150 and Zero PSI)
Continued after cutting off hoses and GSHP Pressure @CSV went to 17PSI and Amps dropped to 12.0
1.)10 GPM @ Tank
2.)13GPM @ distribution bib after tank T" (4 bibs - @4GPM+4GPM+3GPM+2GPM)
3.) 3GPM Hose past house
Total = 26GPM @ 17psi for continuing for another 40 minutes.
I doubt it is the well is running dry and that it is pumping from 140' in the 8" casing. The CSV is limiting the PSI (to 65max) so the system isn't cycling with pressure switch @ 50/70. It just my system is dropping pressure as the flow increases.
I will call Corye. Easier than replacing the valve at this time. Thanks.
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While you are at it install a pressure gauge on the inlet side of the CSV. That is the best way to troubleshoot a problem. Had one similar to this the other day and it turned out to be a clogged filter between the CSV and pressure tank/switch/gauge.
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I have a T" and 200PSI gauge on order. I live in the sticks so it's going to be next week before I can change the plumbing on the well head and the CSV gut pack.
Now for new news. Pressure into the house running the GSHP is about 10psi below what it was before I ran full flow test. I get minimum pressure at the faucets when the GSHP runs. With the GSHP running I still get serious pressure/flow outside the house. (I believe I still have an issue with CSV delivering constant pressure - but admit it could be the new pump). I think I will dig up the piping to the house to check piping and valves and consider going all 1-1/4 to my distribution closet custting out two(2) - 3/4" PVC/PEX lines. The only problem will be getting through the foundation for the 1-1/4. I'll have to crawl under house within a house and between axles - no clearance to speak of. Done that before and it was not fun.
One question and I'll leave you alone till I change the plumbing and report back. If it is the pump. What Grundflos pump end would I want to purchase and have installed. I'm pretty sure the new 2HP Franklin motor is OK. I'm pretty sure I can live with full 15GPM at 50+ PSI. I am certain I have a good producing well. My father originally had a 30GPM 3HP pump installed, then 10 years later went to the 20GPM 2HP, which I have now replaced with a 20GPM 2HP.
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That L20 should be large enough, but something isn't right. A Grundfos to replace that pump would be a 25S20-11.
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From hdude
Follow-UP for my post on CSV, Cycle Sensor and Tuning Minimal Run Time
My uncle and I ran various tests on my system trying to determine why the CSV and new pump were not providing constant pressure, much less adequate pressure when running 6-8gpm demand for my GSHP. When running my GSHP using my aunt’s system, I got 40psi in the house but when using my new pump/CSV @60psi, I only got 25psi in the house. We came to the conclusion that somehow with my pump, either I had an obstruction in my lines or that my house was being fed through a 3/4" supply line. So I started digging at the gate valve that I used to turn on the (backup) system from my aunt’s house to mine.
1.) The shutoff valve I thought was to my aunt's system - actually shut off the 1-1/4” lines from both my system and hers.
2.) When both systems were shut off, somewhere within the 400' of 1-1/4 piping around my house and yard - a ¾” pipe fed back into the 1-1/4 line, just before the junction that supplies my house via two(2) ¾” lines.
With this discovery (and a lot of digging) and doing some repair and plumbing changes - I now have more or less constant pressure into the house even when running my GSHP. I now have my CSV set to 55psi pressure switch @50/70psi and I am getting 50psi in the house while running my GSHP. I only see 1 or 2 psi drop when turning on additional faucets or showers.
Note – Before I moved into the house, ¾” water supply lines were installed in 1978 and then new 1-1/4” lines were installed in 1994 when the well was dug. I added an additional ¾” line to the house in 2012 of the 1-1/4 line after the shutoff. I am now in the process of replacing the 3/4" lines with a 1-1/4” lines all the way into my household distribution closet (even if now I am getting great pressure and flow). With monitoring, I can attest that the pump is only cycling about 50 times a day (due to GSHP cooling running almost continually during the heat) instead of an estimated 400 a day previously.
I do think I will be adding an additional 10 gallon psi-kick for various reasons, including the fast fill time (30-40 seconds) after flusing a toilet when the GSHP isn't running.
Just want to add, the Cary and his staff provided great support in helping me implement their products and then later to address my problems. I will be installing CycleStop products on my (backup) aunts pump and supply system later this summer.