Cycle Stop Valves
Pump System Questions and Answers => Pumps, Wells, Tanks, Controls => Topic started by: Allen on November 21, 2015, 08:09:11 PM
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I have a 2,500 gallon storage tank filled by my well. A Walrus TQ800 booster pump with a built in pressure switch preset to 36 and 69 psi, on and off, respectively, supplies water to my home. My pressure tanks are about 60 feet away from the booster pump at the house. Can I install a Cycle Stop Valve and is so how?
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Sorry for the delay, I had to look up that pump. It is kust another on a long list of pumps that uses a little electronic controller and tea cup size pressure tank. They are designed to stop on low flow using a built in flow sensor. These type controllers give lots of problems. With luck these type pumps usually last about three years as planned. Then you just have to replace them because there is no way to repair them. Pump companies want you to buy a new $500 pump every 3 years instead of you purchasing a good pump and CSV which might cost $800 but should last 30 years.
They are also made so you can't get a CSV and a decent size 4.5 gallon tank installed prior to the pressure switch. They already built in the 3 year planned obsolence into that pump and they don't want you to be able to alter it and make it last longer.
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I knew it is basically a disposal pump and I plan to replace it and plan to replace it and use it as an emergency backup. What are some good brands that will provide long-term reliability? The nutshell is that the pressure controller needs to be on the distribution side of the CSV?
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Yes the pressure switch and tank need to be after the CSV.
Goulds, Sta-rite, F&W, even Grundfos make good jet pumps as long as you stau away from the variable speed and electronic controlled models.
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Wouldn't I use a booster pump rather than a jet pump since it is coming out of the storage tank? Sounds like a side kick unit with one of the name brand booster pumps would be a good way to go.
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Yes the Pside Kick kit controlling a good jet pump would be a long lasting set up that would supply great pressure and volume.
The jet in a jet pump just increases the pressure as needed from a single impeller pump. Jet pumps will lift from shallow wells but make great booster pumps when drawing from a storage tank.
Without a jet, a centrifugal booster pump would need to have multiple impellers or stages to create enough pressure for a house.
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Cary, you do a great job! I'm looking at a Goulds J10S jet pump to replace the Walrus. The 1 hp J10S comes with a pressure switch but it looks to be externally mounted and should be easy to wire around.
Since there is no such thing as a free lunch, what is the head loss across the CSV? For example, if I am using the J10S with the CSV set at 50 psi, rule of thumb question: how much is the flow from the pump reduced from its rated value of 16 gpm or so at a 5-foot lift? (actual performance should be significantly better since the inlet will be under positive pressure)
Thank you again especially for turning me on the advantages of jet pumps used in booster service!
Allen Messenger
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Yeah just use the pressure switch that comes with the Pside kick kit and wire around the pressure switch that comes with the pump.
The CSV1A has 10 psi lose at 20 gpm flow. Set at 50 psi while using a 3 gpm show means the pressure will be 40 when you are using 20 gpm.
If the cost difference is not too much you could use a J15S instead. You can use as large of a pump as you think you may need and the CSV will make it work like a small pump when that is all you are using.
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Cary, thanks again for being so responsive and helpful. I now have a plan thanks to your guidance.
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Got the Pside Kick kit today. How much will it add to the height of the pump if mounted on top as shown in the instructions? I have a low pump house that may need to be modified.
Thanks!
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The Pside-Kick kit will fit in a 24"X14"X14" space. If mounted on top of the pump with the tank over the motor is should be about 14" taller than the pump.
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Lessons learned by the home plumber. Use galvanized pipe between the pump and the CCV.
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Hi Allen
Actually plastic pipe between the pump and CSV should be fine as long as the pump doesn't get hot. A J10S has a max pressure of 76 PSI. So if your pressure switch shuts off the pump at 66 PSI or lower, the 10 PSI differential will push enough through the CSV to keep the pump cool. If your shut off is higher that 66 PSI, the water in the pump may get hot and soften plastic pipe.
Also if you lose prime the pump will get hot. It is better to have a foot valve only and not a check valve on on a jet pump system, to prevent losing prime.
You can also use a Cycle Sensor as a protector to shut the pump down if it loses prime, which it will do long before the pump gets hot.
Changing to a galv nipple will only move the hot water problem to the pump. If the nipple had not melted and started to leak, you would have probably melted the pump instead. Still have to fix the real problem which is working at too high a pressure or losing prime.
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I learned a lot reading these posts.
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Hi Allen
Actually plastic pipe between the pump and CSV should be fine as long as the pump doesn't get hot. A J10S has a max pressure of 76 PSI. So if your pressure switch shuts off the pump at 66 PSI or lower, the 10 PSI differential will push enough through the CSV to keep the pump cool. If your shut off is higher that 66 PSI, the water in the pump may get hot and soften plastic pipe.
Also if you lose prime the pump will get hot. It is better to have a foot valve only and not a check valve on on a jet pump system, to prevent losing prime.
You can also use a Cycle Sensor as a protector to shut the pump down if it loses prime, which it will do long before the pump gets hot.
Changing to a galv nipple will only move the hot water problem to the pump. If the nipple had not melted and started to leak, you would have probably melted the pump instead. Still have to fix the real problem which is working at too high a pressure or losing prime.
I had three failures associated with the PVC piping between the Pside Kick and the pump. I am an above average home plumber having worked as a pipefitter's assistant in a refinery for several summers while in college and having completely plumbed two homes including the one I've lived in the past 36 years. I am not used to having my plumbing leak or fail. Once I installed galvanized pipe between the pump and the Pside Kick I haven't had a problem. The difference in price is negligible and it is better suited particularly if the Pside Kick is installed directly on the pump as shown in your illustration. At least that's my experience.
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I am glad the steel nipple solved your problem. But I am still afraid you have a heat problem. The water should not get hot enough to soften PVC pipe. I only use the steel nipple in the jet pump pictured to hold the weight of the tank. Otherwise I would use PVC pipe if the tank was mounted on the wall.
You can check the minimum flow to see if the water is getting hot. Just open a hose until the pump comes on. The reduce the amount of water coming out of the hose to a trickle. If you have a 40/60 pressure switch, adjust the output of the hose until the pressure is steady at 59 PSI. This should be the minimum flow the CSV will allow. Measure the amount coming from the hose in a bucket and a stop watch. And feel the pump housing to see if it is getting warm.
If the low flow is less than 1/2 GPM and the pump is getting warm, you can reduce the pressure switch setting. Shutting off the pump at 55 instead of 60 maybe all you have to do to keep the water from warming up.