Cycle Stop Valves
Pump System Questions and Answers => Valve Tech => Topic started by: WellSaid on May 08, 2017, 06:04:12 AM
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Pump Specs:
- Goulds model 5GS10422
- 5gpm
- 1 HP
- 1 phase 2 wire
- 230V
Well Info: - Total depth - 500 ft.
- Static water level - 33
- Amount of reservoir - 700.5 gallons
- Yield of well - 1.46 gpm
- Draw down - 145, tested for 6 hours
Water Info:
Questions:- What csv system do I use?
- What kind of iron filter is best?
- And where should it go in the system?
- Any specific micron level of the iron filter?
- With acidic water, should I not go with the stainless steel version?
- Can I get a dry installation valve?
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Hi WellSaid
It looks like you have a 700 gallon cistern storage tank. With a well that only makes 1.43 GPM the storage tank is a good idea. However, you should have only a float switch and Cycle Sensor for the well pump. At the very most maybe a ball valve or a 1 GPM Dole valve on the well pump.
The best place for a CSV is on the booster pumping out of the cistern.
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I currently have a Well-X-Trol 302 pressure tank connected to a tee along with a pressure switch, check valve, shutoff valve, drain, pressure relief valve, & gauge. I'm thinking something like this setup would work. Do you think? http://cyclestopvalves.com/smf/index.php?topic=2188.msg3290#msg3290
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Yes that setup will work great with the booster pump coming out of the 700 gallon storage tank. But you do not need a pressure tank/pressure switch or a CSV on the well pump that feeds the storage tank. Maybe you could post a pic or two of your setup?
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I don't have a cistern storage tank. I don't think I can post a picture. Maybe because I have only a few posts? I will send the picture via your contact email listed on your homepage.
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OK I think I am finally up to speed. So the 700 gallon reservoir is the amount stored in the well between 33' and 500'. If I use the 33' static level and look at the pressure the 5GS10 can build, there will be 230 PSI on the inlet to the CSV and all the pipe prior to the CSV. This is a little more pressure than we like for the CSV1A. 230 PSI coming into the CSV1A and 50 PSI going out will be a differential pressure of 180 PSI. While the CSV1A will work with that much differential pressure, we do not recommend more than 125 PSI differential. The higher the differential pressure the sooner it will wear out the CSV1A.
With systems that have high differential pressure like this we use two CSV1A valves and stair step the pressure down. The first CSV1A would be set at 140 PSI, and the second CSV1A would be set at 50 PSI. This way the differential pressure is split between the two valves. Both CSV1A valves will last a long time with only 90 PSI differential on each.
However, having said that, you only have a 5 GPM pump. The CSV will only work between 1 and 5 GPM. It is not nearly as useful as it would be if you had a 10-25 GPM pump. With only a 5 GPM pump, it only takes a 44 gallon size pressure tank (10 gallons of draw) to get long run times with a 5 GPM pump.
I would love to sell you a Cycle Stop Valve. But this is one of those times when just a regular pressure tank might be best.
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If I understand you correctly, are you saying that because I can get a 44 gallon sized pressure tank, there's no need for a cycle stop valve?
Buying a wx250 along with the fittings would cost around $650.
Buying a CSV along with the PK1A, would cost $519.
Is this doable? Wouldn't I also be increasing the longevity of my pump and have more constant flow of water if I could do the CSV system?
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Yes with the extra CSV1A and the PK1A kit you can make it work. Just need to check the pipe coming to the CSV to make sure it can handle the 230 PSI. But I found a 44 gallon Amtrol tank for 300 bucks here.
http://www.acehardware.com/product/index.jsp?productId=1277660&KPID=1160902&cid=CAPLA:G:Shopping_-_Sump/Utility_Pumps&pla=pla_1160902&k_clickid=3de52fdc-4edc-4249-a8b6-5851a0612dd8
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The incoming water line is 1" PVC. Not sure if it matters, but the pump set is 450'.
Just to make sure I told you correctly, here is what my well report said back in 89: - Static water level is 33 when not pumping.
- Amount of reservoir is 700.5 gallons (depth of water column X 1.5/gal/ft.)
- All depths at which water was encountered - 85 flowing into well
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1" sch 40 PVC is good to 450 PSI. The glue joints are good to 270 PSI. So you should be OK with 230 coming in. But even without a CSV it doesn't take a very large tank to reduce the cycles for a 5 GPM pump like it does for a 15-25 GPM pump. The 44 gallon tank is double the size you really need for a 5 GPM pump. And when you do not use a CSV it is best to have at least double the size of tank recommended.
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So if I was to go with the csv's would I just install the two back to back?
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Yes. One right after the other.
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With my current pressure tank (302), I was looking up the specs and it is rated at 150 psi. Does that mean that's the max it can handle? If so, might I be okay with one csv?
What about an iron filter before the csv?
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It is the pipes before the CSV that will see the 230 PSI. The pressure tank and everything after the CSV will only see the 40 to 60 PSI that the pressure switch maintains. I use those 150 PSI rated tanks for golf courses where the pressure switch runs from 120/140 PSI and the CSV holds a steady 130 PSI.
Believe it or not, I have cities with 100,000+ people in them that only has a WX302 tank for the entire city. With a CSV an 86 gallon tank can supply a big golf course or a large city without a water tower.
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I'm trying to understand and I think I'm confused. :o I'm pretty sure there is a pressure switch and a pressure relief valve before my pressure tank and nothing else but pipe from the well. Are you saying those two things can decrease the pressure going into the pressure tank?
Also, off topic, should I get a different sized well pump when it fails and needs replacement?
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NO. I am saying the CSV is prior to the pressure tank/pressure relief/pressure switch, and the CSV reduces the pressure from 60-230 PSI to the 50 PSI constant that the house needs. When you are only using 1 GPM, the CSV makes the pump think it is in a 530' deep well (230 PSI) so it can only pump 1 GPM. Then when you use 5 GPM the CSV makes the pump think the well got shallow, 138' deep (60 PSI) so it can pump 5 GPM as needed.
If this were a 10, 15, or 25 GPM pump the CSV would be more important. But it is hard to make a 5 GPM pump cycle because the house will use close to 5 GPM, and with a fair size tank the number of cycles is very low. When you have a 15-25 GPM pump and the house is only using 2-5 GPM, the extra water the pump produces causes a lot of cycling, and the CSV can help with that. With a 5 GPM pump there isn't much or any extra water to cause cycling.
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Okay, so are you saying the cycling benefit of a csv would not apply since my pump doesn't cycle much anyway? If so, in my case, are the benefits of using multiple csv's just being able to eliminate a tank on the floor and having constant water pressure?
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Yes the double CSV's would let you use a much smaller tank. But even with two CSV's you would only see constant pressure when using between 2 and 5 GPM. Using less than 2 GPM and the pressure will go up to the pressure switch shut off point. Using more than 5 GPM the pressure will drop because that is all the pump can produce. You would get constant pressure for a 3-4 GPM shower, but that all the pump can produce before the pressure starts dropping off. If you even had a 10 GPM pump the CSV would be a lot more beneficial.
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Is a 10gpm pump an option for my well specs?
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That depends on how much water you need. With static at 33' you can set a 10 GPM, 1HP at about 300'. That would give you about 400 gallons stored in the well to use as fast as needed. So a 10 GPM pump could deliver 10 GPM for 40 minutes. And with a CSV it could deliver 5 GPM for 80 minutes, or 3 GPM for over 2 hours at a time. If you use more water than that, you would need to set a bigger pump at a deeper depth. But for a house that uses the average 300 gallons or so per day, that would work great. The 10 GPM, 1HP would only have 150 PSI back pressure so the standard PK1A kit would be all you need.
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Since my water rate is at 1.46 gpm, would the 10gpm pump still work? Currently the 5gpm/1hp pump is at 450'.
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You have 1.5 gallons of water stored in the well below the static level of 33'. So setting the pump at 300' would give you 400 gallons to use before the 1.46 gallon recharge rate comes into the picture. Once you use the first 400 gallons at 10 GPM or whatever rate you want, then you would only get 1.46 after that. After you use 200-400 gallons at any one time, you would just have to wait 2-4 hours for the well to recharge at 1.46 GPM before you can use another 200-400 gallons at 10 GPM.
If the pump in the well at 500' is still working, you can use it to do a draw down test. Just run the pump wide open at 8 GPM or so for maybe an hour (480 gallons). Then shut the pump off and see how long it takes for the water level to return to 33'. Say that takes 4 hours to return to 33'. It should take about 5-6 hours. Which means you don't have to set the pump any deeper than 300' as long as you don't use more than 480 gallons every 6 hours.
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When the well was drilled in 1989, they did a draw down test for 6 hours and the draw down water level was 145. Is this data still applicable today?
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Probably hasn't changed much. Those are good numbers but it would be nice to know the flow rate of the test pump?
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Would there be any disadvantage of setting the 10gpm pump at the same depth as the current 5gpm pump (450 feet)? Also, the recommended range of the 10gpm pump is 3-16gpm. Does that mean it is bad for the pump if my yield is only 1.46 gpm?
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Actually the safe pumping range for a 10 GPM pump is from 1 to 16 GPM. But just because the well has a recovery rate of 1.46 GPM doesn't mean the pump can only get 1.46 GPM. Like I said the pump will be able to pump from 1 to 16 GPM as long as there is a reservoir of water standing in the well. When you pump long and hard enough to draw all the 700 gallons stored in the well, then the well will only make 1.46 GPM. But you can pump 16 GPM until the water level is pulled down.
You can set a 10 GPM, 1HP as deep as you want, but it will only lift from about 300' and still build 50 PSI the house needs. It will just start losing pressure if the water level gets below 300'. And if the water level gets drawn down to 400', the 1HP will no longer be able to pump anything.
If you think you need more than 400 gallons storage to use at any one time, you will need to use a 10 GPM. 1.5 HP, which can still draw water from about 500' deep. Most houses only use about 300 gallons in an entire day, so I don't think you need any larger than a 1HP or a setting any deeper than 300'.
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Okay, so it sounds like when my current pump fails, I should go with a 1HP 10gpm pump and then I can use just 1 CSV. With my current pump, I can either go with 2 CSV's and/or a 44 gallon pressure tank. Do I have that right?
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That is correct. And if you decide to go with the 44 gallon tank now, you can still use it with one or two CSV's later if you want.
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Okay. Do sediment and iron filters go before or after the CSV's?
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It would be nice to filter the stuff before it gets to the CSV. But if the filters are not rated for the 150-230 PSI pressure that will be before the CSV, you will need to put them after, and just let the CSV deal with the sediment.
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Once the 5gpm pump is replaced with the 10gpm, would the correct Cycle Sensor be CS1PH3-15HP?
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No you will need the Cycle Sensor model CS1PH1-2HP for any pump less than 2HP.
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Oh, right. I was confusing the 1HP with 3gpm. Once I replace the 5gpm with the 10gpm pump, will I need to remove one of the two csv's?
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With a 10 GPM, 1HP, yes you only need one CSV1A. But with a 10 GPM, 1.5HP you would still need two CSV1A valves.