Messages

1006

Open Loop Geothermal Heat Pump / Re: Premature pump head failures - CP-75 constant pressure open loop

« on: December 04, 2014, 10:50:05 AM »

I hear these kinds of stories all the time.  Many people tell me it doesn’t matter how much energy a Geo Heat Pump can save if they have to replace the expensive well pump so often.

VFD’s or variable speed pumps are prone to premature failure.  Pump systems that use the old pressure tank only method are also prone to premature failure from excessive cycling when the heat pump is running.

A CSV can eliminate the destructive cycling and/or replace variable speed type pumps.  The CSV makes the well pump system last a long time and is just as efficient as a variable speed pump or VFD.

When done correctly an open loop Geo system can save tremendous amounts of energy.  But a CSV makes open loop Geo systems affordable by causing the system last a long time, and being able to get a Return on the Investment.

1007

Open Loop Geothermal Heat Pump / Premature pump head failures - CP-75 constant pressure open loop

« on: December 04, 2014, 10:40:14 AM »

From a Home Owner with a Open Loop Heat Pump

I have a system I installed in 2006, which consists of a CP-75 constant pressure pump, feeding a 4-ton system, and then draining into a different well. The flow is set to about 12 GPM. I also use water for irrigation around the house, during the dry season.

 The pump head is a F&W 4F19S10, and after the first three months of use, I started getting metal particles into the filter I placed before the HP. The pump failed the first day below zero. Luckly I had a pump in the discharge well, and was able to use that to heat until a warranty pump could be shipped and installed.

 Now, about 6 years later, the pump has failed again. It has been suggested that the overdriven pumps, like the CP-75 system uses, are prone to early failures.

 I am wondering if anyone with more information or experience might comment on this. Meanwhile I'm getting tired of pulling the well pump. Oh, the details, the well is 30 gpm, 75' deep, and the pump at 60', with the static water at 28'

1008

Reviews / Pressure Like a Five-Star Hotel

« on: December 04, 2014, 07:42:01 AM »

Hello,
I purchased and installed one of your valves (CSV1Z) back on 04/01/2011.  April Fool’s Day!!!  I was skeptical, and considering the day I was installing it, I figured it was destined to be a move I would regret.  Well, I think it’s safe to say at this point I couldn’t have been more wrong.  Your valve has done exactly what you said it would do and has performed flawlessly.  I have installed geothermal heating/cooling, all new windows and doors, improved insulation, re-wired and re-plumbed my entire 40+ year-old house, etc., etc.  Each of those items carried a pretty high price tag and delivered a noticeable benefit.  However, from a “bang-for-your-buck” standpoint, your valve takes that prize…uncontested!  Being able to shower and not have to wait for the tank to pump back up in order to have enough pressure to rinse the soap out of your hair may not sound like such a big deal, but it is.  It’s like having municipal water pressure without the disgusting chlorinated “city water”.  It’s like showering at a five-star hotel.  I also didn’t like the price tag or the track record of other “constant pressure” methods.

Thank you again for a great product

 

Ron H

Columbia City, IN

1009

Open Loop Geothermal Heat Pump / Supply House with Geo Discharge Reduces well pump size, saves big

« on: December 03, 2014, 07:23:04 PM »

Heat pump install date August 2007                                                    Updated and replaced 80 gallon tank with Pside-Kick
                                                                                                           kit and 4.5 gallon pressure tank December 2012

My well is a low producing well that only makes 4 GPM. The well has a couple of hundred gallons of storage on top of the recovery rate of 4 GPM. So my well pump can produce up to 10 GPM for short periods of time. My heat pump needs a minimum of 4 GPM for long periods of time. The peak domestic use for the house is 10 GPM.  I would have needed 14 GPM to supply both at the same time, which the well and pump is not able to do.

So I tied in my domestic water to the discharge side of the heat pump instead of the inlet side. Now all the water goes through the heat exchanger before it gets used for domestic use in the house. 

When the house is using more than 4 GPM while the heat pump is running, the extra flow through the heat pump reduces the temperature differential, and makes the heat pump more efficient. When the house is not using any water, and the heat pump is on, 4 GPM is being dumped into an earth tank for livestock use. This way a 10 GPM pump is adequate to supply the heat pump and the domestic use. I was able to use a 1/3 HP well pump. This 1/3 HP pump supplies the heat pump, the house, a barn, a guest house, a little irrigation, two small wildlife watering stations, and an ornamental fountain, before the excess goes to the livestock tank, where I also raise fish. This not only makes the most use of the limited water available but, also requires a smaller well pump, which saves energy on pumping cost for the Geo system.

The well pump was already running 24/7 at a cost of about $70 per month, to supply the water for livestock. I am just pulling the heat out of the water and supplying the houses before it goes to the livestock tank, which basically means my heat and domestic water supply is free.

The showers in the main house are the only place where we notice the change in temperature for using the discharge water from the heat pump. When the AC is on, the cold water in the shower is almost perfect without adding any hot water, which saves energy and hot water. When the heat is on, the cold water in the house is a little colder, so we have to add more hot water to adjust the shower temperature. With a 50 gallon water heater, we still have plenty of hot water. The change in the water temperature for the house is not even noticed by the toilets, sinks, ice maker, or washing machines.

The discharge water from the heat pump at the main house travels about 1,200 feet to feed domestic water to the barn and guest house. By the time it gets there it is already back to ground temperature, and no one at the guest house notices a temperature change from the heat pump at the main house.

The only concern I had was the quality of the water discharging from the heat pump (copper) coming through the heat exchanger to feed the house domestic supply.
Got the water tested. (August 2009) Copper was 33 ppb, and the EPA says the acceptable level of copper is 1300 ppb. This sample was taken after the heat exchanger and all the way to the other side of the house, which is all copper pipes. The system is less than 2 years old, so it should get even better with age as the green patina covers the inside of the copper pipes. Everything else tested below the detection limit of 5 ppb.

Update;  12/03/14
This system is now about 8 years old and we have had no problems.  Teeing in the domestic water on the discharge side instead of the inlet side of the heat pump has saved a considerable amount of water and energy.  In this way the same water gets used at least twice for the same expense. 

The well pump has never shut off except during a few power outages, and then only for short periods of time.  Pumps like to run 24/7, so the pump should last many times longer than a well pump that cycles on and off frequently.

Conclusion;
Teeing the water for the house domestic use on the discharge side of the heat pump has many benefits.  It allows the use of a much smaller, less expensive pump, which saves considerable energy and water compared to the traditional way of teeing in the house supply on the inlet side of the heat pump.

1010

Open Loop Geothermal Heat Pump / Geo Heat Pumps and Energy Savings with VFD's

« on: December 03, 2014, 05:20:42 PM »

For many years I have heard form owners of open loop geo systems that pumping cost quickly takes a back seat to the cost of continually replacing the pump system. With variable demands form a house/geo combination, regular pumps using pressure tanks, would cycle themselves to death on a regular basis. It doesn’t take long to figure out that spending an extra 20 dollars a month on electricity and having a pump system last 20 years, would be far less expensive than saving 20 bucks a month on electricity using pump systems that must be replaced every 3 to 5 years or less.

 In the last 10 years or so I have been hearing these same complaints from people who are using variable speed pumps. I have been working with variable speed pumps for more than 20 years, so I understand them very well. Whether you want to believe it or not, variable speed pumps were designed as a cash cow for the manufacturer, not to save you money. Manufacturers claim they save energy, which is the “hook” that snags most people. The reality is VFD’s always increase the energy used per gallon. Even when running at full RPM, the parasitic losses of a VFD cause you to get fewer gallons per kilowatt used.

 There is nothing more efficient than a properly sized standard pump, running at it’s best efficiency point, and drawing pure sinusoidal power directly from the grid. The VFD control itself uses extra energy, and the harmonics and stray voltage they produce cause the motor to be about 5% less efficient. Then when you have a unit drawing 1.5 HP while producing 30 GPM, it is using more energy per gallon when slowed to produce 5 GPM and still drawing a 3/4 HP load. 1.5 HP producing 30 GPM is drawing .05 HP per gallon. The same pump slowed to 5 GPM and still drawing a 3/4 HP load is using .15 HP per gallon produced. This is 3 times more energy used than a properly sized pump.

 However, the biggest expense is because of “planned obsolescence”, which is the main reason manufacturers have for designing variable speed pumps. They can more easily predict and plan the length of time for failure of a pump system. With standard pumps using pressure tanks, the number of cycles would determine the life of the pump system. Manufacturers had built in enough quality for the pump to cycle an average of 7 years before it failed. Then things like Cycle Stop Valves came along that reduce the number of cycles considerably, and would triple or quadruple the life of pump systems. This was completely unacceptable to pump manufacturers, so they quickly devised a plan to use variable speed technology that had been used in industrial applications since 1968, to compete with the constant pressure performance of the CSV in residential applications.

 They designed little Driemel tool size pumps that only weigh 11 pounds and spin 10,600 RPM, with computerized electronics built into the motor. These will last many times less than standard heavy-duty pumps that were built like bench grinders that weigh 40 pounds, only spin 3450 RPM, and do not have any electronic components. Then they lie about variable speed pumps saving energy to make you think it is the “green” thing to do. Once you buy into the variable speed hype, you are locked into a perpetual cycle of regular and expensive replacements, which is how they keep the cash flow flowing through these big corporations. Usually after people have been through 3 or 4 of these, they realize that saving energy is more about longevity of the equipment, than supposedly saving a few bucks a month on the electric bill. Then after switching back to a standard type pump, they discover that they were never actually saving even a few bucks a month with the previous variable speed systems.

 The best way to save energy and make the pump system last with a geo open loop is to use a 2 pump set up. You need as small a well pump as you can get that will produce 30 GPM at low pressure. Then you can use a jet pump as a booster to the house, to increase pressure for the showers and sinks.

1011

Open Loop Geothermal Heat Pump / Geo Heat Pump with Low Pressure Well Pump Saves Energy

« on: December 03, 2014, 05:15:27 PM »

Well pump and booster pump to feed house and multiple heat pumps



 Homeowner Info Video
https://vimeo.com/248374321

 Pside-Kick video
https://vimeo.com/248374462

 To cut pumping cost for a heat pump, a two-pump system is recommended. This system uses a 25S10-7 pump end, with a 1 HP motor. This pump would deliver 27 GPM at 100' of lift. Control this well pump with a 20 PSI Cycle Stop Valve, a small pressure tank, and a 10/30 pressure switch. After the pressure tank, one line tees off to the heat pump, another tees off to a booster pump for the house. Use about a 3/4 HP jet pump with it’s own Cycle Stop Valve set at 50 PSI, and a 40/60 pressure switch.

 When the heat pump alone is running, an electric discharge valve opens, the pressure tank drains to 10 PSI, and the pump starts. The 20 PSI CSV will vary the flow to match a single 10 GPM heat pump, two 10 GPM heat pumps, or two 10 GPM heat pumps while still providing up to 10 GPM for the house, which a total of 30 GPM. This should cut your pumping cost by more than 1/2 of what a single 2 HP pump can do. When the heat pump shuts off, the electric discharge valve closes, and the CSV slowly fills the pressure tank to 30 PSI, and the well pump is shut off.

 When the house alone is using water, the pressure will drop from 60 to 40 PSI and the 3/4 HP jet pump will start. The 50 PSI CSV will maintain 50 PSI to the house no mater the flow rate being used. This jet pump system is drawing water from the well pump system, so the pressure tank on the well pump system empties as the pressure drops from 30 to 10 PSI, and the well pump is started. The CSV on the well pump feeds exactly as much water to the jet pump booster as the house is using. Both pumps run as long as the house is using water. When the house stops using water, the CSV on the jet pump will slowly fill the pressure tank to 60 PSI, and the jet pump is shut off. Then the CSV on the well pump will slowly fill it’s pressure tank to 30 PSI, and the well pump is shut off.

 When the heat pump(s) is/are running, the well pump/CSV is delivering 10 or 20 GPM at 20 PSI. If the house needs water at the same time, the jet booster pump comes on, and the CSV on the well pump opens up to supply both the heat pump and the jet booster pump. With a 100' pumping level, you should be able to get 30 GPM total when the house and both heat pumps need water at the same time. When the house no longer needs water, the jet pump system will fill it’s pressure tank to 60 PSI, and the jet pump is shut off. Then the CSV on the well pump reduces the flow to 10 or 20 GPM, matching the amount used by the heat pump(s). Again, when both heat pumps are shut off, the well pump fills it’s pressure tank to 30 PSI, and both pumps stay shut off until water is needed again.

 Reducing the main well pump from a 2 HP to a 1 HP will cut the pumping cost considerably. The only time both pump will run at the same time is when water is being used in the house. The house will use very little water compared to the heat pumps, so the added electric for the booster pump won’t add up to much. If the system is also used for irrigation about 500 hours a year, both pumps will run this amount of time.

 The 2 HP single pump system with CSV described earlier will use $942.00 per year, or $78.50 per month.

 The 2 HP single pump system with VFD described earlier will use $751.00 per year, or $62.58 per month.

 The 2 pump system with CSV control described here will use $631.00 per year, or $52.58 per month.

 The 2 pump system will save considerable energy over a single pump system. Using CSV controls, these pumps should last a long time, which is what really saves the most energy. The savings for using a two-pump system is $311.00 per year or $25.92 per month.

1012

Open Loop Geothermal Heat Pump / Geothermal Heat Pump with Single Well (Pump and Dump)

« on: December 03, 2014, 05:13:11 PM »

Open loop heat pump and house supplied from a single well pump.

1013

Pictures and Cad drawings of pump systems / Low yield well with storage tank and backup pump

« on: November 10, 2014, 01:05:14 PM »

Low yield well with storage tank and booster pump.

1014

Frequently Asked Questions / Re: "Misinformation"

« on: November 10, 2014, 09:16:27 AM »

I can tell Lanse believes his story, as he is sticking to it no matter what the facts say.  I have had this same argument with easily more than 100 other pump installers and engineers over the last 20+ years.  I usually try to educate them over private conversations.  I only posted this one because Lanse dared me and because I am tired of getting so many accusatory emails.  I also wanted others to see the hatred I experience for having to tell so-called “professionals” that VFD’s cannot save energy.

In Lanse’s defense he is only repeating what he has been told by his pump suppliers and manufacturers.  I am sure he has spent many hours in “classes” being brainwashed by VFD and pump salespeople.  The alligator told the frog to “trust him, and not to worry”. He would gladly “take the frog to the other side of the pond”?  The frog realized only too late that the alligator (VFD salesperson) had an ulterior motive. 

Lanse said “…..”
“I can see that further discussion with you is fruitless;” Further discussion??  You have not tried to discuss anything.  All you did was make some incorrect statements about VFD’s saving energy, running at 50% speed, and being able to work at 10% of the power required.  Then after accusing me of being “arrogant, ridiculous, not understanding, spreading misinformation, and selling dinosaurs”. You dared me to post “your opposing comments”, which I did.  Yet you still cannot show proof anything I said was incorrect.

“In a perfect world of having a pump deliver at a set constant pressure and output, neither a VFD nor a restrictor, which is what your valves are, would be needed.”
It is far from a perfect world.  The demand, and therefore the output of the pump as well will vary widely on almost all pump systems.

“A VFD allows a pump to deliver widely varying demand at a constant pressure.” This is just further proof that you still do not understand. The CSV maintains a constant pressure as well, and allows even wider variation in demand than a VFD.

I know it is hard when you realize everything you thought you knew about pumps since 1984 or whenever, is completely wrong.  I went through the same thing myself.  I had been working with pumps for 20+ years and thought I knew everything.  Then one day when playing with a pump system that had both a Valve and a VFD I had a “eureka moment”.  After that I have spent the last 20+ years re-learning everything.  Only when you finally admit you don’t know all there is to know can you really begin your education.

Explaining to some people that VFD’s do not save energy is like having to tell kids there really is no Santa Claus.  Some finally believe, others will deny the truth until the end of days.  Either way most will hate me for having ruined their little fantasy.

In the last 20+ years, not a single person from the oldest pump man alive to the top engineers for major pump and control companies have been able to prove me wrong.  I am sure that makes me sound arrogant, but I am not.  It is winning these arguments for so many years that made me so confident, and I humbly apologize if that makes me sound arrogant.  I do not believe I am better, smarter, or more important than other people, which is the definition of arrogance.  After many years I am simply confident, as I finally learned how to do the math and interpret the facts correctly.

I can’t count on all my fingers and toes the number of people who ended this argument by telling me “I am entitled to my own opinion”, yet can’t show a single bit of proof to back up their “opinion”.

I also cannot count on all my fingers and toes those who called back to apologize when they realized everything I said was correct.  So there are a few good pump installers and engineers who understand this stuff.  I am fortunate to have become friends with many of them. Unfortunately there are only a very few good ones who really understand. 

I know this is a complicated subject as it has taken me 40+ years to get to this point, and I am far from knowing all there is to know.  I still learn something new everyday, which makes this business enjoyable for me.  I am always willing to share what I have learned so far. 

Homeowners and water users are smart to educate themselves as much as possible.  Without educating yourself on the subject you could easily mistake arrogance for confidence.  Only a tiny fraction of all pump installers and engineers understand the basic concepts of how pumps really work.  The more arrogant they are, the more name-calling they do, the more they tell me I am entitled to my own opinion, the less they really understand.  The intelligent ones will quietly ask a few questions, study a few pump curves, and finally see where they have been thinking wrong all these years.

“keep your opinion and I’ll keep mine.”  You opinion doesn’t change the facts.  I am not offering an opinion on this subject.  I am simply stating facts and posting proof to back it up.  Name-calling is a last act of desperation, when you have no proof to back up your accusations.

1015

Frequently Asked Questions / Re: "Misinformation"

« on: November 10, 2014, 09:15:48 AM »

Another email from;
Lanse
Pump Service (since 1984)

Cary,
Your arrogant reply shows that you don't understand. In a perfect world of having a pump deliver at a set constant pressure and output, neither a VFD nor a restrictor, which is what your valves are, would be needed. A VFD allows a pump to deliver a widely varying demand at a constant pressure.
I can see that further discussion with you it fruitless; keep your opinion and I'll keep mine.

1016

Applications / Re: List of Many Different Systems That use CSV's

« on: November 06, 2014, 01:03:21 PM »

bump

1017

Applications / Complete Pump Stations

« on: November 06, 2014, 12:58:00 PM »

Prefabricated pump stations for Municipal, Irrigation, or Industrial applications. Cycle Stop Valve control eliminates the need for large pressure tanks and Variable Frequency Drives. Centrifugal, Turbine, Submersible or any combination of pumps available.

We have factory trained dealers who can fully assemble, test, and deliver pump stations to your site. All you add is water and electricity.

We also have the facility and teach new dealers how to build pump stations using Cycle Stop Valves.

1018

Applications / NASA uses Cycle Stop Valve on Solid Rocket Booster

« on: November 06, 2014, 12:49:03 PM »

When the Space Shuttle is on the ground, de-ionized water is circulated throughout the vectoring system for the solid rocket boosters. Various flow rates are required at different times as a pressure regulator tries to maintain 20 PSI on the system. A thousand feet away from the regulator and booster rockets, a 5 HP pump with a pressure switch and pressure tank cycled on and off as needed. The booster rocket is equipped with rupture disc at 21.5 PSI. The pump cycling on and off was causing a transient pressure wave that the 20 PSI regulator could not contain. This caused the rupture disc to rupture on a regular basis. Adding a CSV1Z Cycle Stop Valve between the pump and tank keeps the pump running steady, eliminating the cycling. The CSV solved the problem as the rupture disc no longer rupture.




 The Cycle Stop Valve is a simple valve that solves complicated problems.

 Municipalities, irrigation systems, even your own home can enjoy the same constant pressure that solved the problem on the Space Shuttle.

 We have always said you don’t need rocket science to understand the CSV. However, now it seems that rocket science needs CSV.



 Cary,
 Thanks much for all your support. Your product is performing great. Attached are pictures of the installed unit and pics of the Ares test rocket that's parked right outside the building where the pump is located. You can also see in the background one of the retrieval ships that tows the spent rocket boosters back to this facility. Thanks again for all your help in making this a successful project.

 Randal B. Mick
 USA SRB Facilities Systems Engineer

1019

Applications / Water Utilities use Cycle Stop Valves to Save Water & Energy

« on: November 06, 2014, 12:09:50 PM »

Water Utilities Companies in Texas operates several hundred water systems. The average system has two 10 HP or 15 HP pumps and a 10,000 or 20,000 gallon pressure tank. Because these pumps produce several hundred gallons per minute, and a 10,000 gallon pressure tank only provides about 1200 gallons of draw down, the pumps can cycle 200 to 300 times per day. This cycling is destructive to the pumps, motors, starters, and switches. Cycling also causes water hammer that burst pipelines, wasting tremendous amounts of treated water, as well as the energy used to produce it.

 Some of these systems have documented 49% loss of water. Water hammer from pumps cycling can cause thousands of tiny stress fractures, or blow out an entire section of pipe. Thousands of tiny stress fractures waste millions of gallons over time. A main line bursting, waste millions of gallons in a short time. Eliminating water hammer can save tremendous amounts of water and considerable amounts of energy, while reducing pipe line repair costs.



 To eliminate the pump cycling, a Cycle Stop Valve was added to each pump. See the pressure recording chart in Figure #1. The pump cycled on and off 300 times the day before the CSV installation. After the CSV was installed, you can see that the pressure remained at a constant 66 PSI indefinitely. Water hammer was eliminated the minute the CSV was installed. Pipeline breaks are virtually eliminated and considerable head way is being made repairing water lines. A major difference now being, that once the pipeline has been repaired, it stays that way.


 After only a few months of service there has been a noticeable reduction in lost revenues. As more of the leaks in the pipeline are found and repaired, less and less water and energy is being wasted.

1020

Applications / 2,000 GPM Turbine pump supplies four 500 GPM pivot sprinklers

« on: November 06, 2014, 12:06:07 PM »

After three VFD’s failed in less than five years, this farmer decided to try a Cycle Stop Valve. Three years later there have been no problems with the CSV. The system is able to supply one pivot just as easily as all four pivots when needed. In three years the CSV has saved almost $18,000 that would have been spent on VFD replacements.

 CSV’s have also been used for variable rate pivots. The USDA did a study with Variable Rate Irrigation (VRI) using Cycle Stop Valves several years ago. These pivots vary from 200 GPM to 2,000 GPM as the pivot goes around, depending on soil moisture meters and GPS instructions.

 Also see from the USDA: http://www.cyclestopvalves.com/letterseditor_25.html