Messages

1036

Applications / Using Ground Storage Tank Instead of Pressure Tanks

« on: November 05, 2014, 04:39:55 PM »

There are other ways of handling continuous low flow in systems where there is no place to install a small Pressure Maintenance pump. An example would be a system with a water source being a single water well with a 100 HP pump. When used with a Cycle Stop Valve the 100 HP would be able to supply a demand as small as 5 GPM without causing damage to the pump or the system. However, the 100 HP pump when restricted would only drop to about a 60 HP load. While the 5 GPM flow will not hurt the pump or motor in any way, it is not very efficient to use 60 HP to pump 5 GPM. Therefore, another option is recommended. For this example we are going to start the 100 HP at 50 PSI and turn it off at 60 PSI. The Cycle Stop valve will also be set at 50 PSI. The 100 HP and it’s Cycle Stop Valve will feed from 5 GPM to 2,000 GPM into the system while maintaining 50 PSI. The only way the 100 HP will be shut off is if the flow rate being used is less than 5 GPM. Then 5 GPM will enter a small pressure tank until the pressure reaches 60 PSI and the 100 HP will be shut off. This is never going to happen because the system is large enough that there is about 10 GPM minimum flow at all times.

 We can still install a PM pump. Somewhere in the distribution system, it can be past the controls at the 100 HP well or anywhere along the pipe line, a ground storage tank is needed. For this example we are going to use a 3,000 gallon atmospheric tank tied into the main line 100 yards from the supply well. A 3" solenoid valve is used to fill the 3,000 gallon tank. The solenoid valve is opened by a low probe and closed by a high probe in the tank. Drawing water out of the 3,000 gallon tank is a 3 HP 50 GPM PM pump. The PM pump is controlled by a Cycle Stop Valve, and a pressure switch with a small pressure tank. The PM pump starts at 60 PSI and is turned off at 70 PSI. The Cycle Stop Valve on the PM pump maintains 60 PSI when usage is between 5 GPM and 50 GPM. The PM pump simply discharges into the main line. When the 3,000 gallon storage tank is full and usage is less than 50 GPM the 3 HP pump is the only pump running. When the 3,000 gallon tank is empty the low probe would shut off the PM pump and open the solenoid valve at the same time. The pressure would drop to 50 PSI and the 100 HP would be started. The Cycle Stop Valve on the 100 HP would hold the system at 50 PSI matching the usage in the system while refilling the 3,000 gallon tank. When the storage tank is full and the top probe is reached the solenoid valve would shut and the PM pump would be restarted. If the usage is less than 50 GPM the PM pump will be able to bring the system pressure up to 60 PSI which would shut off the 100 HP pump. If usage is above 50 GPM the PM pump will not be able to bring the system pressure up to 60 PSI. The Cycle Stop Valve on the 100 HP will maintain 50 PSI and add only what extra water is needed above what the 3 HP cannot produce. As long as the usage remains below 50 GPM the 100 HP pump only comes on to refill the 3,000 gallon tank as needed.

1037

Frequently Asked Questions / Do I need a Cycle Sensor or a Presure Relief Valve?

« on: November 05, 2014, 04:14:50 PM »

Most motors have an overload built into them.  But overloads are only made to protect the power company, not the motor.  By the time an overload trips the motor and/or pump is probably already dead, as it will have been running dry or cycling on/off rapidly for quite a while. 

The Cycle Sensor detects rapid cycling and dry run and shuts the pump off almost immediately.  You can just reset the Cycle Sensor and the pump will start up again.  Then you will need to figure out why the pump is cycling or running dry, as the Cycle Sensor will just turn it off again, but at least the pump will not be destroyed.

Having a Cycle Stop Valve on the pump greatly eliminates the chance of cycling the pump to death, so that feature of the Cycle Sensor hopefully won’t be needed. 

The Dry run feature of the Cycle Sensor is really only needed if the incoming water source to the pump is not reliable.

A pressure relief valve will only be needed if there is a malfunction that keeps the pump from shutting off, as it should.

The pump, Cycle Stop Valve, pressure tank, and pressure switch will work fine without any additional safety devices.  And the Cycle Stop Valve eliminates most of the possible failure mechanisms in a pump system.

However, safety devices like the Cycle Sensor and a pressure relief valve can be good as additional insurance.  The cost of the pump and the amount of inconvenience for being out of water until the pump is replaced, are the best ways to judge if you need safety devices or not.  Is it better to have it and not need it, or need it and not have it? 

1038

Reviews / No Big Tank

« on: November 05, 2014, 07:06:48 AM »

Hello
Just wanted to let you know that since I installed the CSV-1250-1 I have had
no pressure problems and without buying a large pressure tank again. I will
tell others in my area about your product.
Thank You

Wes C

1039

Frequently Asked Questions / Re: "Misinformation"

« on: November 03, 2014, 01:41:06 PM »

Hi Lanse
I will be happy to post your comments on our web page.  I will post them on the forum, which will give you the opportunity to reply and apologize for your lack of understanding on how pumps work.

It would have helped for you to show a pump curve or give some kind of basis for your incorrect assumptions.  I have plenty of pump curves and proof posted on my web page for you to study.

“Proper sizing of pumps is more important” is the only thing you said that was factual.  You can go to my other articles and look at pump curves to see the math that proves everything I say.  But I will give you a little overview here as well.

Well, as you said, lets “look at the facts”.  If you knew how to read a pump curve it would be obvious there is no way for a “properly sized pump” to be slowed down by 50% and draw only 10% as much energy.

When using a VFD, head is lost by the square of the pump speed.  The pump must always spin fast enough to lift the water to the top of the well or building, and still produce 50 PSI on top of that.  Maintaining this certain amount of head greatly limits the minimum speed the pump can spin and still push water out the faucets. 

There is no way this static head could ever be reduced by 50%.  Even if you could reduce the head by 20%, because head is lost by the square of the speed, a 10% reduction in pump speed is the most the pump could be slowed down.  Even though energy required is reduced by the cube of the pump speed, a 10% reduction in speed only reduces the energy consumption by about 28%, not 90% as you suggested.

Now even though the Affinity Law shows a 10% reduction in pump speed creates a 28% reduction in energy use, the actual energy required will still be regulated by the amount of water being used.  In other words even though the pump still has to spin at 90% of full speed to produce the head or pressure required, which would only decrease the energy consumption by 28%, the actual energy used can still be reduced to about 50% of full load.  This is because when the pump is at it minimum speed, the horsepower curve still moves to the left as the flow rate is restricted and moves to the left, which is how a pump works normally.

When slowing a 1HP pump/motor to its minimum possible speed of 90%, restricting the flow to 1 GPM will still require ½ HP energy. This means a 1HP pump that can produce 10 GPM at the design point will only drop to about 1/2HP load when slowed down with a VFD to produce 1 GPM.  Producing 10 GPM with 1HP is 10 GPM per horsepower.  Producing only 1 GPM while still using 1/2HP energy means the VFD is using 500% more energy per gallon.

I know this is confusing for those who do not know how to read a pump curve.  Pump and VFD manufactures are using this confusion to make you think a VFD can save energy.  This way they con you into buying the most expensive, least reliable product, because VFD’s are very profitable for the manufacturers.

“The VFD makes the amps go down by 90% and saves 90% in energy costs.” Yeah right! They don’t want you to pay any attention to the flow meter “behind the curtain” that shows only a 50% amp drop that only happens when the flow is reduced by 90%.  Then you would understand that anytime you reduce the pump speed with a VFD the energy used per gallon increases dramatically like 500% or so.

Why are you letting the pump/motor and VFD manufacturers keep you in the dark? Look at the flow meter and learn how to read a pump curve.  Then learn how to read a multi-rpm pump curve and you will discover the error in your thinking.

Cycle Stop Valves are actually much newer than VFD’s.  I had been through Electrical Engineering, built computers, and had lots of experience with VFD’s many years before you started working with pumps in 1984.  I would never subject any of my customers to all the problems and expense of a VFD. 

Even though I haven’t installed a VFD for anyone since about 1991, I still play with the news ones that come out every 18 months or so.  I try to keep up to see if anybody ever figures out how to change the laws of physics.  In the 25+ years I have been dealing with VFD’s they have gotten smaller, lighter, faster, and cheaper.  But no one will ever be able to change the laws of physics.   So no one will ever be able to make them save energy, make pumps last longer, eliminate harmonics, voltage spikes, bearing currents, and all the other negative side effects that are naturally inherent with VFD’s. 

There are still LOTS of dinosaurs alive today.  Dinosaurs are the ones still using VFD’s. CSV’s are much better and a much more modern way of getting pumps to do the multiple jobs you need them to do.

There are about 40 more articles with pump curves that you can read at these two links.

http://www.cyclestopvalves.com/vfd-energy.html

http://www.cyclestopvalves.com/csv-vs-vfd.html

Ask yourself why in all these years, none of the pump, motor, or VFD manufacturers have taken me to court and tried to shut me down for the things I say?  It is because anyone who understands pump curves and VFD’s knows I am telling the truth.  I would not be able to say, “VFD’s for centrifugal type pumps are a scam” if it were not true.

I will take it one step further and say that anyone who sells VFD’s for these types of applications is either a “scam artist”, or completely ignorant of how pumps work.

If you can show proof that ANYTHING I say is incorrect, please post it here.  This is not my first rodeo.  I have had this argument with some of the top engineers for the major pump companies over decades.  If you will notice they never come back to argue with the facts that I present.

Example;  http://www.cyclestopvalves.com/pdf/pumpman_3.pdf
 
Some of my best friends and customers started out accusing me like you did.   I hope you and I will become friends and you will start asking some intelligent questions.  But you can’t just call me a “Dinosaur”, “ridiculous”, say nana nana boo boo, and tell me to stop “spreading misinformation”. 

If you want to prove what you are saying post a curve of a pump that will produce the head required at 50% of speed and only use 10% energy.  When you realize that is not possible, I will be here to answer your questions.  It is the pump and VFD companies that are lying to you, not me.
Thanks
Cary

1040

Frequently Asked Questions / "Misinformation"

« on: November 03, 2014, 01:40:33 PM »

Since Cycle Stop Valves began in 1993 we have received many letters and emails similar to the ones below.  These are the typical things a Pump Service Company thinks and says when they do not understand the effects CSV’s and/or VFD’s have on pumps.

From a Pump Service Company
Lanse in CA

Your misinformation about VFD's is ridiculous. You say you haven't used them in 20 years. Well, are you still using the same computer you had, if you even are up to that point, 20 years ago?
I use VFD's when appropriate, also the Grundfos CU301,  and standard pumps when indicated.
Your valves DO NOT save energy. They do reduce cycling which is good for the motor life and reduce power consumption due to starting load, but that is offset by longer run times. Proper sizing of pumps is more important.
When the system has circuits that have widely varying demands, a VFD is indicated. You claim they don' save money. Well, look at the facts. A pump running at half speed pumps approximately one half the amount of water, yet consumes only about one tenth the power consumed at full power.
Your valves were all we had long ago, but dinosaurs are gone. Stop spreading misinformation.
I dare you to post this opposing comment.
Lanse
Pump Service (since 1984)

1041

Reviews / Please Sign Up and Post Your Reference Here to a New Topic

« on: October 29, 2014, 08:09:50 AM »

I have moved some references to this forum.  This allows users to sign up and post their own reference.  Please start a new topic and let us know what you think of your Cycle Stop Valve.

1042

Frequently Asked Questions / Written Expalnation of How a CSV Works

« on: October 29, 2014, 08:00:36 AM »

The CSV is just a valve that opens and closes like a ball valve.  It just has a spring to push it open and a diaphragm to push it closed. 

With a 40/60 pressure switch the tank is drained when a tap is opened and the pressure drops to 40 PSI starting the pump.  The adjustment bolt sets the spring tension in the CSV at 50 PSI.  So once the pump is started the CSV tries to maintain 50 PSI.  If you open more taps and the pressure drops to 49 PSI, the CSV opens delivering more water to get the pressure back up to 50.  If you close some taps and the pressure increases to 51 PSI, the diaphragm pushes the valve closed enough to bring the pressure back down to 50 PSI.

So no matter how many or how few taps you have open the CSV just keeps the pressure at 50 PSI, and doesn't let it build to 60 PSI which would make the pressure switch shut off the pump.  This entire time the water is just flowing right past the pressure tank, straight to the taps.  So it doesn't matter if you have a 1 gallon or a million gallon pressure tank.

When you turn off all the taps the CSV closes as much as it can at 51 PSI.  However, there is a 1 GPM bypass made on the valve seat so the valve just can't close less than 1 GPM.  And since all the taps are closed there is no place left for this 1 GPM to go except for the tank.  So now the water makes a right turn into the pressure tank and the pressure slowly increases to 60 PSI where the pressure switch is set to turn the pump off.

Now the tank is again full and the pump is off, waiting for someone to open a tap and start the process all over again.

The CSV has no control over the motor speed.  It simply opens or closes a valve to allow the correct amount of water through to match the amount being used.

The counter intuitive part of the CSV is that the motor amps drop when the flow from the pump is restricted with a valve, the same way the amps drop when the motor is slowed down with a complicated, computerized, expensive, short lived Variable Speed Drive (VFD or VSD).

Many people think that choking a pump back with a valve makes the amps go up and the pump to work harder, while slowing the motor speed would make the pumps work easier.  In fact just the opposite is true.  Choking the flow from a pump reduces the amp draw and makes the pumps work easier, while reducing the speed with a VFD is very hard on the pump/motor.

If you find a pump man or engineer who understands this, you have found a good one.  If they think a CSV is hard on a pump and a VFD saves energy and makes pumps last longer, they don't know their butt from a hole in the ground, so find a new pump man or engineer.

1043

Pumps, Wells, Tanks, Controls / Re: Any dis/advantage in keeping 32 gal hydro tank with CSV?

« on: October 29, 2014, 07:51:33 AM »

You are correct.  The CSV is just a valve that opens and closes like a ball valve.  It just has a spring to push it open and a diaphragm to push it closed. 

With a 40/60 pressure switch the tank is drained when a tap is opened and the pressure drops to 40 PSI starting the pump.  The adjustment bolt sets the spring tension in the CSV at 50 PSI.  So once the pump is started the CSV tries to maintain 50 PSI.  If you open more taps and the pressure drops to 49 PSI, the CSV opens delivering more water to get the pressure back up to 50.  If you close some taps and the pressure increases to 51 PSI, the diaphragm pushes the valve closed enough to bring the pressure back down to 50 PSI.

So no matter how many or how few taps you have open the CSV just keeps the pressure at 50 PSI, and doesn't let it build to 60 PSI which would make the pressure switch shut off the pump.  This entire time the water is just flowing right past the pressure tank, straight to the taps.  So it doesn't matter if you have a 1 gallon or a million gallon pressure tank.

When you turn off all the taps the CSV closes as much as it can at 51 PSI.  However, there is a 1 GPM bypass made on the valve seat so the valve just can't close less than 1 GPM.  And since all the taps are closed there is no place left for this 1 GPM to go except for the tank.  So now the water makes a right turn into the pressure tank and the pressure slowly increases to 60 PSI where the pressure switch is set to turn the pump off.

Now the tank is again full and the pump is off, waiting for someone to open a tap and start the process all over again.

The CSV has no control over the motor speed.  It simply opens or closes a valve to allow the correct amount of water through to match the amount being used.

The counter intuitive part of the CSV is that the motor amps drop when the flow from the pump is restricted with a valve, the same way the amps drop when the motor is slowed down with a complicated, computerized, expensive, short lived Variable Speed Drive (VFD or VSD).

Many people think that choking a pump back with a valve makes the amps go up and the pump to work harder, while slowing the motor speed would make the pumps work easier.  In fact just the opposite is true.  Choking the flow from a pump reduces the amps draw and makes the pumps work easier, while reducing the speed with a VFD is very hard on the pump/motor.

If you find a pump man or engineer who understands this, you have found a good one.  If they think a CSV is hard on a pump and a VFD makes pumps last longer, they don't know their butt from a hole in the ground, so find a new pump man or engineer.

1044

Pumps, Wells, Tanks, Controls / Re: Any dis/advantage in keeping 32 gal hydro tank with CSV?

« on: October 26, 2014, 04:45:21 PM »

The CSV will work with any size tank.  But in most cases there are no benefits to using a larger tank.  There are exceptions, as listed in the explanation below.

A big pressure tank is good for lots of little intermittent uses of water like ice makers and toilet flushes as an 80 gallon size tank will deliver 25 gallons before the pump must start.  Then if you have any long term uses of water like heat pumps or sprinklers, the CSV takes over after the pump starts and delivers constant pressure without letting the pump cycle on and off.  For many years I believed that a big pressure tank with a CSV was the best of both worlds.

However, I have learned that the CSV takes out so many cycles for long-term uses of water, a small tank causing a pump cycle every time a toilet is flushed by itself, doesn’t add up to much.  If the pool is filling, a sprinkler is running, or any other water is being used when a toilet is flushed, the CSV just gives a little more water for the toilet, but there is no extra cycle.

Seldom is a toilet flushed by itself.  Usually within a minute after flushing, the shower or a sink will be turned on.  Many times there will be two or three flushes within a minute of each other, then the shower or sink.  And that is just one persons use.  Multiple people in a house use water at the same time.  Someone in the kitchen runs the sink or the dishwasher.  Maybe the cloths washer has been on the entire time all this other stuff was happening.  As long as some water is being used anywhere in or outside the house, the CSV makes the water go right past the pressure tank, straight to the faucet that is open.  So it doesn’t matter if the tank holds 1 gallon or 25 gallons.

We have found that only systems that supply between 3 and 50 houses will benefit from a larger tank with the CSV.

  Number of houses                             Size of Pressure Tank
Less than 2 Houses                                        4.5 gallon
3- 10 Houses                                                  20 gallon
11-49 Houses                                                 80 gallon
50+ Houses                                                    40 gallon

Another counter intuitive thing about a CSV is, the more water a system uses, the smaller the tank can be.  When you have less than two houses with multiple people using sinks, toilets, showers, appliances, etc., and/or a heat pump, sprinkler system, which includes garden hoses, a 4.5 gallon tank is all you need.

However, there are times when a little larger pressure tank can be beneficial.  A large CSV controlled pump system can use an 80 gallon size pressure tank to supply an entire city of 40,000 people.  So there is no reason to use a tank any larger than 4.5 gallon size for one or two home. 

But when 3 to 50 homes are using the same pump system, a little larger tank can be a benefit.  With 3 to 50 homes there are times when no one is using water, but there are enough connections that a few leaking faucets could be supplied by a pressure tank, so the pump does not have to start to supply a few leaks.  In situations like these, a 20 to 80 gallon size pressure tank that holds 5 to 25 gallons of water would be good to use with a CSV.

To see the benefits of a smaller pressure tank see, “Why a Small Pressure Tank is All You Need with a CSV”, at this link.   http://cyclestopvalves.com/smf/index.php?topic=1953.0


See this graphic;          http://www.cyclestopvalves.com/simple/home.php

The Cycle Stop Valve system is on the top.  A conventional tank system is on the bottom.  If you turn on a sprinkler and let it run for hours, the pump runs constantly for hours as well.  During this time, if you flush a toilet, take a shower, or use any other water, the pump is already running and the CSV just opens up a little to give you enough extra for the added shower.  When you turn off the shower or the toilets fill and shut off, the CSV just resets to the amount of water needed to run the sprinkler.

The same thing happens when you turn on a shower.  As long as the shower is on, the pump is also on, so even 40/11 toilet flushes don’t add a single extra cycle to the pump.  In a house where there are multiple people, and/or multiple systems using water, the pump will be running a lot of the time, which is a good thing.  As long as somebody, or something, somewhere in or around the house is using water, the pump is already running.  Anything else turned on just gets the extra water it needs, without the pump having to cycle one extra time.

If you noticed the conventional pump system at the bottom of the graphic, it is just cycling on and off continually no matter where or how much water is being used. 

The Cycle Stop Valve just lets you use as much or as little water as you want without cycling the pump.  Water just goes from the pump, right past the tank, straight to the sprinklers, showers, wherever, because the CSV gives only the exact amount of water needed.


But don’t get me wrong.  The CSV will work with any size tank you prefer.  Some people think a larger pressure tank will give them a little stored water for times when the power is off.  This is true if you are lucky enough that the power goes off while the tank is full.  However, Murphy’s law says the 40/60 pressure switch will be at 41 PSI when the power goes off, and the largest tank available will be empty.  A couple of 5 gallon jugs in the closet is a more reliable way to have some water when the power goes off. 

1045

Pumps, Wells, Tanks, Controls / Re: Just installed new PK1A and wow! But....

« on: October 06, 2014, 09:56:45 AM »

If the water level in the well gets any deeper than about 40', that 10 GPM, 1/2HP pump just cannot build to 60 PSI for shut off.  If you think that is the case then lower the pressure switch setting to 30/50 and the CSV setting to 40 while running something small like a single shower.

1046

Pumps, Wells, Tanks, Controls / Re: CSV1A

« on: September 26, 2014, 07:50:49 PM »

Am I correct in assuming that:

CSV1A screw turned counterclockwise (loosened) = decrease constant run pressure?

CSV1A screw turned clockwise (tightened) = increase constant run pressure?

Yes

1047

Pumps, Wells, Tanks, Controls / Re: Final Adjustments

« on: September 26, 2014, 10:44:18 AM »

In your case with a 60/80 pressure switch, the pressure switch turns the pump on at 60 when you start using water and turns the pump off at 80 when you are no longer using any water.  The adjustment on the CSV1A sets the pressure for WHILE you are using water.  So turn on a 3 GPM shower or something else that uses about 3 GPM and adjust the CSV1A to hold 70 PSI while the water is being used.  Even if the shower is on for a month the CSV should hold 70 PSI and never let the pump shut off at 80 PSI.  Only when you turn off all the faucets should the little tank fill and the pump shut off at 80 PSI.

1048

Pumps, Wells, Tanks, Controls / Re: CSV1A

« on: September 26, 2014, 10:43:54 AM »

In your case with a 60/80 pressure switch, the pressure switch turns the pump on at 60 when you start using water and turns the pump off at 80 when you are no longer using any water.  The adjustment on the CSV1A sets the pressure for WHILE you are using water.  So turn on a 3 GPM shower or something else that uses about 3 GPM and adjust the CSV1A to hold 70 PSI while the water is being used.  Even if the shower is on for a month the CSV should hold 70 PSI and never let the pump shut off at 80 PSI.  Only when you turn off all the faucets should the little tank fill and the pump shut off at 80 PSI.

1049

Pumps, Wells, Tanks, Controls / Re: Final Adjustments

« on: September 25, 2014, 07:42:51 AM »

It sounds like everything is working as it should until you turn on the exterior hose bib.  With an 18 GPM pump the pressure should not drop unless you are using way more than 18 GPM.  A hose bib should not be able to let out that much water.  But if it is really a frost free hydrant instead, they can let out a lot of water.

Do the bucket test on the hose bib.  Add in the GPM from the bathtub and sink to see how much water you are using.  With the CSV set at 70 PSI, it just turns into a piece of pipe (wide open) when the pressure drops below 60.  So either you are using more than the pump can supply or the pump is producing more than the well can produce.

1050

Frequently Asked Questions / Re: Hydrant for barn

« on: September 24, 2014, 07:12:14 AM »

There you go.  It will work fine that way.