Messages

1276

Pumps, Wells, Tanks, Controls / Re: Soft Start?

« on: May 31, 2013, 11:27:21 AM »

2” and larger CSV’s are normally closed.  This means they are in the closed (5 GPM) position when the pump starts, no matter the pressure setting. 

The smaller, direct acting CSV’s are normally open.  This means the only thing that holds them closed (1, 2, or 5 GPM) position is when the downstream pressure is higher than the valves set pressure.  So with a 40/60 pressure switch, the CSV would need to be set at 40 PSI to be in the closed (1, 2, or 5 GPM) position when the pump starts.

However, the water in the well pipe is still holding pressure on the pump in the well, along with the 40 PSI in the tank as the pump starts (40/60 switch, CSV at 50).  As water is not compressible, and the CSV reacts instantaneously, the first wave of water coming from the pump will actually close the CSV for and instant.  This blocks the pressure wave from traveling further than the CSV.  The CSV instantly starts controlling the pressure, if it is higher than the set point.  Or opens up fully if the pressure is below the set point.  Either way the CSV prevents any pressure pulse further down the line. 

This is not quite as good for a soft start as being in the closed position like the larger CSV’s are.  Although I don’t think soft start is nearly as important on a 10 GPM pump as it is a 100 GPM pump.  You can also get a reduced voltage soft start by using the longest length of the smallest wire possible for the horsepower motor that you have.  Franklin says, “using the maximum recommended cable length there will be about 20% reduced starting current and about 36% reduced starting torque”.   Basically, over-sizing the pump cable is not a good thing, as the right size cable can give you all the benefits of a reduced voltage soft starter.

All Cycle Stop Valves, large or small, will be in the “closed” (or minimum flow) position when the pump stops.  This certainly gives you a soft stop, as the check valve is only open the thickness of a piece of paper at these low flow rates.  So when the pump shuts off, the check valve “kisses off” quietly, and water hammer is completely eliminated.

1277

Pumps, Wells, Tanks, Controls / Re: Pump Minimum Flow

« on: May 31, 2013, 10:57:57 AM »

I agree that your 3 HP motor needs about 2 GPM for proper cooling.  The pump curve also shows that 10 GPM, 3 HP pump to deliver 880’ or 380 PSI of backpressure.  So to set the CSV1A at 50 PSI and not have more than 125 PSI differential pressure, the static water level needs to be at 473’ or deeper. 

When the pump has to lift 473’ before the water gets to surface, you will lose 205 PSI of the 380 that pump can build.  So the CSV will only see 175 PSI on the inlet, and with 50 PSI set as the outlet, there is only 125 PSI differential pressure.  A shallower static water level of 415’, would cause a differential pressure across the CSV of 150 PSI, which is the most I would like to see across the valve.  The higher the differential pressure across the CSV, the sooner it will wear out.

There are cases where a pump like this is set at 600’, with a static water level of 100’.   These are usually weak producing wells, so the pump starts when the water level is at 100’ static, and pulls the water level down to 590’ as more water is used.  In this case the backpressure on the CSV, and the pipe before the CSV, will be 338 PSI when the pump first starts and the static level is 100’.

To reduce 338 PSI to the 50 PSI you need, we would use two of the CSV1A valves in series.  The first valve would see the 338 PSI and have a downstream setting of 190 PSI.  The second valves would see the 190 PSI, and have a downstream setting of 50 PSI for the house.  This way there is only about 140 PSI differential across either CSV, and they will last a long time.

The Cycle Stop Valves listed on our literature are the standard valves we use the most.  However, we make specialty valves for different applications all the time.  For instance the first valve in the above scenario would be a CSV1A with a 2 GPM minimum and a spring with an adjustment range of 150 PSI to 300 PSI.  The second CSV1A would have the standard 15-150 PSI spring, but would also be made with a 2 GPM minimum.  We can match a CSV to almost any pump or application.

With a 2 GPM minimum, you just need to make sure your drip system zones use 2+ GPM to keep the pump from cycling.  Multiple tanks as you have are the best way to handle long term flow rates of less than 2 GPM.  But be aware that flows less than 2 GPM will still cause cycling.  If your tanks have 80 gallons of drawdown and you have a 1 GPM drip system, the tanks will be empty in 80 minutes.  With maybe 5 minutes to refill the tanks, that would be a cycle every 85 minutes.

It will only take about 5 minutes to refill tanks with 80 gallons of drawdown, even though the CSV has a minimum of 2 GPM, because you set the CSV at 58 PSI while using a 40/60 pressure switch.  In this way the tanks are almost full before the CSV starts working or limits the flow to 2 GPM.

1278

Pumps, Wells, Tanks, Controls / Re: Required Pump Size with CSV

« on: May 29, 2013, 07:25:10 AM »

The CSV1A valve cannot close completely, so it can never deadhead the pump.  The 90 PSI on the pump is normal.  With the pump shutting off at 60 PSI, that means there is 30 PSI differential across the CSV.  With 30 PSI differential across the non-closing CSV, that means you have a minimum flow of about ¾ of a GPM.  This is plenty to keep the pump cool, no deadheading.  I don’t usually leave a gauge on the pump side of the CSV, as that just seems to confuse people.  When you close off all the faucets, the pump builds up to 60 and shuts off, which means it is still moving enough water to stay cool.

Don’t sweat it.  Just enjoy the constant pressure and lack of pump cycling.

The relief valve needs to be installed after the CSV, and it need to pop open if the pressure ever get to about 75 PSI.

1279

Pumps, Wells, Tanks, Controls / Re: Need Help with CSV2W1.25T2575

« on: May 11, 2013, 06:28:55 PM »

Sorry Brook but the pressure tank, switch, pressure relief valve, and all water connections must be after the CSV.  Just need to get it to the right place and it will work. 

1280

Irrigation / Re: Would a CSV help my irrigation issues?

« on: May 05, 2013, 08:18:04 PM »

All you need is a couple of 1" PVC male adapters, or a couple of 1 1/4" PVC female adapters.  The CSV1A has 1" female and 1 1/4" male threads on both ends.

1281

Irrigation / Re: Would a CSV help my irrigation issues?

« on: April 29, 2013, 10:46:17 AM »

The CSV1A would be best for adjusting it up to 65 PSI, and I am sure it would solve your problem. We can sell you one for $206 freight included.

1282

Pumps, Wells, Tanks, Controls / Re: New Install.....need Advice

« on: April 18, 2013, 10:59:53 AM »

If you are using at least 14.5 GPM that pump will stay running.  But if you are using 14 GPM or anything less, the pump will cycle like crazy.  There are thousands of so-called “pump professionals” out there, but I can probably count on two hands the number that really understands how pumps work.  I could count on one hand the number that understands how a Variable Frequency Drive works.

Can’t say as I blame them though.  If I were still in the pump business, I would have a hard time selling you a CSV because it doesn’t cost much and makes the pump last for decades.  I could make a lot more profit on a VFD, and they don’t last long so I get to charge you more in a few months or a couple of years at the most.

The way some people see it is, if they get to come out and charge you for repairs or replacement of a VFD three times, that is the same as they would make from you in a lifetime with a standard pump system.  So what if you get mad and call someone else out the fourth time.  It doesn’t hurt to make a customer mad and lose them, if you have already gotten the same amount of money you would normally get from them in a lifetime.

The old saying, “Buyer Beware” has never been more important than when installing a pump system.

1283

Pumps, Wells, Tanks, Controls / Re: Need to upgrade my ancient Galv tank

« on: April 18, 2013, 07:58:35 AM »

A ½ HP pumping from 300’ won’t deliver much water.  It could even be a 5 GPM pump at that depth.  But it doesn’t matter how deep the pump is set, what matters is the pumping water level in the well.  Even though the pump is set at 300’, it is only lifting from the actual water level in the well.

The fact that the pressure still hits 60 and shuts off the pump when a shower is running means that the pump can deliver more than you are using.  But if you add extra showerheads, that may no longer be the case.

A CSV can control the flow from the pump to match the amount being used.  This would keep the pressure at a constant 50 PSI for as long as the shower is running, instead of dropping to 30 and spiking at 60 several times during a shower.  50 PSI constant will seem like much better pressure in the shower than when the pressure is bouncing between 30 and 60.  However, the CSV can only do this if the pump is large enough to handle the amount of water being used.  If the pumping level in the well is only like 80’ deep, then a 10 GPM, 1/2HP pump can supply a lot of water.  The deeper it is to water, the less the pump can supply.  I would test it out by running enough hoses to keep the pressure at about 50 PSI, then measure how many GPM you are getting in a bucket.

If the pump can supply enough water, then the CSV with the 4.5 gallon tank is all you need.  Adding a larger tank will not help, and will actually make the pressure problem worse, as the pump just sees the big tank as another demand it has to fill.

The Pside-Kick kit with the 4.5 gallon tank cost $399.00 including freight.  You can’t purchase a regular size tank for that, and the CSV will work better than a room full of pressure tanks.

1284

Pumps, Wells, Tanks, Controls / Re: PumpSaver Protection Advice

« on: April 17, 2013, 02:29:44 PM »

If it is a 2 wire motor, (2 hots and a ground) you don’t need a control box.  If it is a 3 wire motor, (3 hots and a ground) you will need the matching control box just to make it work.

The Cycle Sensor seen at this link
http://www.cyclestopvalves.com/prod_sensor.html
is the pump protector I recommend.  And is about the only one sensitive enough to work with the low amps from a pump with a Cycle Stop Valve.

1285

Pumps, Wells, Tanks, Controls / Re: New Install.....need Advice

« on: April 17, 2013, 02:23:04 PM »

Thanks for the advice.....I believe I would be better off with a CSV regardless of what size pump they put............but arguing with these guys is useless, they think the consumer knows nothing and they are the experts........then they throw the old "well I can put what you want, but if there are problems with it, then it's on you"  ......their trying to throw their warranty out the window because I modified their design.....lol

I will be so glad when this house is done!

I built a house a few years ago.  Dealing with contractors can be a pain.  I had already designed and built the water system myself, and I ended up doing the Heat Pump as well because the contractor didn’t know how to do it.  He tried to act like he knew what he was doing, but he said a couple of things I knew to be totally incorrect.  So I just studied everything and did it myself.  Turned out really good.

You can always add the CSV later.  It will even be good for you to experience the old style 40/60 on/off system before you add the CSV and see how good constant pressure can be.  It is funny that they would disallow a warranty because of a CSV, because the CSV is the reason you will never need any warranty work.

I don’t blame these pump installers.  They are just passing on what they have been told by the pump manufacturers.  Manufacturers spend millions wining, dining, and taking these installers on cruises and other things.  Selling VFD’s and pressure tank only systems that shorten the life of pumps is the way they get the millions to spend.  Manufacturers know the installer will get the blame, and installers who don’t educate themselves deserve to do lots of warranties and lose customers.

You are smart to do your own research.  But if you put in a CSV and your pump last several times longer than it was designed to last, how will pump manufacturers pay for all those cruises?

1286

Pumps, Wells, Tanks, Controls / Re: New Install.....need Advice

« on: April 17, 2013, 01:50:33 PM »

One question on how the CSV's work is once the tank draws down....pump comes on.........at this point the pump puts out at max gpm until the pressure reaches CSV set point (50 psi?), at that time it closes off some to allow preset flow (1gpm?) and cuts the pump off once water demand is off and the tank is back full again?  is this scenario correct?

This is all correct except if you are still using water when the pressure reaches the setting of the CSV, then the CSV moves to match whatever flow rate you are using, and stays that way for as long as you continue to use water.  It only goes to 1 GPM to fill the tank when you have turned off all water faucets.

1287

Pumps, Wells, Tanks, Controls / Re: Question about Goulds LS & GS Pumps

« on: April 17, 2013, 01:46:47 PM »

The working parts are all the same.  The GS just means it has a Stainless Steel discharge head and suction adapter.  I think LS is the model for brass head and suction adapter.  The internals are all plastic and are the same on all models.

1288

Pumps, Wells, Tanks, Controls / Re: New Install.....need Advice

« on: April 17, 2013, 07:26:50 AM »

A larger pump means it will cycle more, so unless you solve this problem with a CSV, the larger pump will not last as long as the smaller pump.

The pipe size is all about distance.  1" PVC will hace 15 PSI loss per 100'.  1 1/4" PVC will only have 1 PSI loss per 100'.  If you are only going 50', 1" pipe would be OK.  Any further, and you well is deeper than that by itself, and you will start to loose flow and pressure in the smaller pipe.

1289

Pumps, Wells, Tanks, Controls / Re: Whole House Filter Advice

« on: April 17, 2013, 07:21:34 AM »

If it ain't broke, don't fix it.  You can always add a filter later if needed.  But if you don't see or feel anything in the water, you don't need a filter.  Adding a filter when not needed is just adding something else to maintain.

1290

Pumps, Wells, Tanks, Controls / Re: New Install.....need Advice

« on: April 16, 2013, 08:12:37 AM »

A 10GS10 is a little overkill if the water level stays around 80’.  But if there is a chance the water level can pull down to say 250’, then that pump can still deliver about 6 GPM.  A well that can produce 100 GPM shouldn’t pull down very much.  I think the 10GS10 is to CYA just in case.  That pump can actually deadhead at 168 PSI, but if you subtract the 80’ to static level, 134 PSI is all the backpressure you will see before the CSV.

I would use one of the CSV1A valves with that pump.  It will work fine with a 44 gallon tank, but it would work just fine with a 4.5 gallon tank as well.  The Pside-Kick kit comes with a CSV1A, a 4.5 gallon tank, pressure switch, gauge, pressure relief valve, wall mount brackets, even a roll of Teflon tape.  This kit sells for $399.00, which is probably less than the 44 gallon tank itself.

I can appreciate the pump man only using CSV’s to solve his problems.  But if he used a CSV on every system, he wouldn’t be having those problems to begin with.

Those prices sound reasonable.  But it would save you about 500 bucks to use the Pside-Kick kit instead of the 44 gallon tank.  If you want to add the CSV1A to the 44 gallon tank system, the CSV by itself is $206.00.  I would recommend the CSV either way, as that 44 gallon tank really only holds about 12 gallons of water, and the pump will still cycle a lot unless you have the CSV.