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Messages - Cary Austin

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1276
Pumps, Wells, Tanks, Controls / Re: CSV pressure question
« on: March 22, 2013, 07:36:24 AM »
Actually 9 amps at 240V means a 1 HP submersible.  Pumping 7.5 GPM into the pressure tank means you either have a 5 GPM pump with a water level of about 100', or a 7 GPM pump with a water level of about 280'.  A 7 GPM pump would not build more backpressure than the pipe of CSV can handle, but the 5 GPM pump could build 250 PSI backpressure.  Without knowing for sure which pump it is, I am afraid there maybe too much pressure to use a CSV.  The only way to measure for sure is to put a guage before a ball valve, close the ball valve, and see how much pressure the pump can build.  If it is less than 200 PSI, the pipe can handle it.  More than 200 PSI would be too much for the pipe.

1277
Pumps, Wells, Tanks, Controls / Re: CSV pressure question
« on: March 20, 2013, 07:32:34 AM »
Hi, Thanks for joining the forum.

I really doubt that you have "hose" attached to the pump at 400' deep.  Just the 400' depth would put 173 PSI on the hose at the bottom.  It would need to be Sch 80 PVC or at least 200# poly pipe, both of which can handle that pressure.

The pressure on the pipe before the CSV is determined by the pump, less the depth to the static water level.  If you don't have a control box or something with the motor horsepower written on it, there are other ways to determine the size of your pump.  The best way is to do a pump test.  You need to open a big valve or several faucets to let out enough water to lower the pressure below 20 PSI on your gauge.  While running the maximum amount of water the pump can produce, measure it in a bucket, or measure at each faucet and add them together for the total GPM of the pump.  While running this much water you need to put a clip around amp meter on one of the incoming electric lines.  The amperage will tell you the horsepower. 7 amps is 3/4 HP, 9 amps is a 1 HP, and 11.5 is a 1.5 HP.  Then the total GPM will tell you the model of the pump.  15 GPM at open flow says it is a 10 GPM impeller pump.  25 GPM would mean a 20 GPM pump, and so on.

Once you know the horsepower and GPM of the pump, you can look up the pump curve and determine the back pressure while pumping only 1 GPM.  You can subtract the static water level from this amount if you now it.  Or just figure total backpressure on the valve if you don't know the static. 

But you are on the right track, as backpressure is the one thing we need to now when adding a CSV.  The CSV itself can only handle about 175 PSI backpressure, so we really need to figure it as close as possible.

I would be glad to talk you through this test if you would like.  Just call if we can help.

I am guessing it is a 7 GPM pump, but we need to know the horsepower and static water level to figure the back pressure.
Thanks
Cary
800-652-0207

1278
Pumps, Wells, Tanks, Controls / Re: tank on top
« on: March 11, 2013, 07:04:38 PM »
The tank will drain from any direction.  Could even easily unscrew the tank if you wanted.

1279
The Pside-Kick kit with the 4.5 gallon tank will run both houses.  You really don't need another tank at the second house, but it won't hurt anything to add another 4.5 gallon tank there if you want.

1280
Pumps, Wells, Tanks, Controls / Re: Required Pump Size with CSV
« on: February 22, 2013, 01:22:02 PM »
I would like to see that link please.

1281
Probably can't go higher than 50.

1282
Actually it needs to be installed before that line to the tank.  Right where the galv tee or the union is.  Here is a picture of a jet pump with a Pside-Kick.

1283
Getting rid of the big tank and switching to a Pside-Kick kit with the 4.5 gallon tank would be a good idea.  As you say, there is more pressure when the pump is on.  With the 4.5 gallon tank that only holds 1 gallon of water, the pump will be on the entire time you are in the shower, and the CSV will hold the pressure steady at 40, which will seem like much more pressure in the shower than 30/50 back and forth.  The Pside-Kick kit is $399.00.

You can see a 6 minute video of how to replace a big tank at this link.
www.youtube.com/watch?v=jANyiSSWD9U

1284
Pumps, Wells, Tanks, Controls / Re: Required Pump Size with CSV
« on: January 22, 2013, 03:31:10 PM »
You should have metal pipe and fittings (brass or SS) between the Pside-Kick and the pump, unless you have the Pside-Kick mounted to the wall.  The “rumbling” of the water flowing through the pipe is enough to break PVC pipe, when you have something heavy on both sides of the PVC pipe or fittings.  You can use the wall mount kit and mount the Pside-Kick kit to the wall, then you can plumb with PVC between the pump and the CSV/tank.

The gauge will flicker a little as water “rumbles” past in the pipe.  But if you use the restrictive orifice as circled in the picture, it takes out a lot of the flickering.  You can also go up to 45/65 or so of you want to increase the run time a bit.




1285
Pumps, Wells, Tanks, Controls / Re: Required Pump Size with CSV
« on: January 22, 2013, 10:45:04 AM »
OK I found the CJ90F.  Strange it isn’t in my old Sta-Rite catalog, and I couldn’t find it in the BEC program either.  Anyway the curve shows 80 PSI max, which you will see in front of the CSV when there is only 1 GPM being used.  There should not be any pulsing.  Makes me think you have a small suction leak.

You haven’t said which CSV or what size tank you have.  But the 20 seconds is how long it takes to top off the tank from 50 to 58 PSI while getting 1 GPM from the CSV. So I am guessing you have the 4.5 gallon size tank, which stores 1 gallon of water.  The tank is already half way full at 50 PSI, so it should take about another 30 seconds to fill from 50 to 60 PSI.  Stopping the pump at 58, is probably why you are only getting 20 seconds instead of 30.

There are all sizes of CSV’s.  You don’t want to put a 1-25 GPM CSV on a 50 GPM pump.  So the CSV should be sized correctly for the pump.

1286
Pumps, Wells, Tanks, Controls / Re: Required Pump Size with CSV
« on: January 21, 2013, 12:03:16 PM »
The highest pressure Sta-Rite I can find is the model HMSF, and that only builds 73 PSI.  Your gauge maybe reading a little bit high.  Those plastic fittings are rated much higher than 100 PSI.  It is usually vibration or water hammer that breaks a fitting, not high pressure.  Yes the CSV can be used with any size pump, provided the CSV was sized to fit the pump.  That higher pressure on the inlet side is OK, and is how the CSV works.  The CSV makes the pump think it is in a deeper well or has farther to push when you don't need the full flow from the pump.  The CSV puts artificial head, (more backpressure) on the pump to reduce the volume of water when a small volume is all you are using.  That back pressure reduces the amp draw of the motor, making it run cooler, so it is actually good for the pump/motor.

1287
Pumps, Wells, Tanks, Controls / Re: VFD's are a scam?
« on: January 21, 2013, 09:38:50 AM »
Hello
Thanks for the email.  I appreciate your position but I stand by my statement that VFD’s are a scam.  VFD’s can only save energy on the rare occasion when you can decrease the pressure required.  Anytime you reduce the speed of a pump to decrease flow while maintaining a set pressure, a VFD increases energy consumption per gallon produced.

A short example would be a 1 HP pump that can produce 10 GPM at BEP.  That is 10 GPM per horsepower.  Reducing the speed of this pump until it is only producing 1 GPM at the same pressure, that pump will still be pulling ½ of one horsepower.  That is now only 2 GPM per horsepower, which is a 500% increase in energy consumption for varying the pump speed.

There are many more efficient ways of pumping water than using a VFD.  Your example of a pump sized for a hundred year flood plus a safety factor is only for sewage or dewatering pumps.  These pumps do not need to maintain a certain pressure.  They only maintain a level in the sump, and just need to deliver enough pressure to pump water over an embankment.  Although using multiple size pumps would still be more efficient, a VFD can vary the speed considerably because it is maintaining a level in the sump, not maintaining a set discharge pressure.

With a large pump for distribution of potable water, maintaining a constant discharge pressure greatly limits any reduction is speed, because head is lost by the square of the RPM.  Again multiple pumps of different sizes staggered on can closely match the flow rate required more efficiently that reducing the speed of a single large pump.  But even with a single large pump, a water tower or large hydro-pneumatic tank can keep the pump functioning at BEP all the time, while flow rates that vary from a little to a lot, are provided by the pressure tank.  A VFD always uses more energy when compared to running a pump(s) at BEP.  Everybody just sees the amps drop when reducing the RPM, and thinks the VFD is reducing energy consumption, even though the energy used per gallon increases dramatically. 

Many people are also quick to say that “pinching the flow with a valve” “waste power and causes undue stress on the pump”.  In reality the effect of “pinching with a valve” is counter intuitive.  “Pinching with a valve” reduces the amp draw almost exactly the same as varying the speed.  See the curves in the link provided by Grundfos pumps. http://www.cyclestopvalves.com/pdf/pumpman_3.pdf
In the first of these curves it shows the VFD increasing the energy used per gallon by 1000%, and in the second curve shows a 400% increase in energy used.   Both methods show an increase in energy used per gallon, but there is only a 12% to 15% difference in horsepower between varying the speed with a VFD and “pinching the flow with a valve”.

Also there is a lot more “undue stress” put on the pump/motor when using a VFD than when “pinching with a valve”. 

With a VFD, harmonic content of the power increases the heat in the motor.  Voltage spikes cause partial discharges that destroy the windings.  Bearing currents greatly shorten the life of the motor.  Destructive resonance vibrations happen at different critical frequencies along with many other problems.

When simply “pinching with a valve” none of these problems exists.  The motor runs on smooth sinusoidal power, without harmonics, voltage spikes, or bearing currents.  The pump is always at a constant speed, and never sees critical frequencies.  The CSV always maintains enough flow for adequate cooling.  About the only problem restricting with a valve can cause is radial deflection of the shaft and impeller.  However, in over 20 years and hundreds of thousands of systems working, we have never seen this problem occur.  Turbines and subs with bearings on both sides of the impeller are not susceptible to radial deflection.  And end suction centrifugals with adequately size shafts and bearings don’t have a problem either.

The only real problem is that Cycle Stop Valves are a disruptive product.  They make pumps last longer and use smaller pressure tanks.  This greatly cuts the profits to pump and motor manufacturers, which is “disruptive” to the industry and is the real reason they say, “pinching with a valve waste energy and puts undue stress on the pump”.

Now even the pool pump manufacturers are getting into the VFD craze, which is ridiculous.  Pool pumps need to produce a certain flow and pressure for the skimmers, filters, and vacuum to function properly.  Reducing the pump speed even slightly prevents the pump from being able to provide these functions.  The so called energy saving calculators show tremendous energy savings for running the pump 24/7, and reducing the pump speed about 75% of the time.  However, at reduced speed the pump is doing nothing but wasting energy.  A simple timer would have shut a standard pump off, which is the least energy that can be used.  But the “energy savings calculator” won’t give you the option of turning the pump off, so it looks like a VFD is saving thousands of dollars in energy.  That way you won’t mind paying $1600 for a variable speed pump instead of $300 for a standard pump.  And you won’t mind replacing that variable speed pump every couple of years instead of having a standard pump that would last 20 years.  That is until you check the electric bill and realize the VFD pump is actually increasing the energy consumption instead of saving energy.

Saying that VFD’s are a scam maybe harsh, but it is accurate.  It is all about the Benjamin’s for the VFD, pump, and motor manufacturers.  They will skew the truth and let you continue to believe misinformation in order to increase their cash flow.  Your only defense is to educate yourself on the subject, and not just believe what the big manufacturers are telling you.
Thanks
Cary

1288
Pumps, Wells, Tanks, Controls / VFD's are a scam?
« on: January 21, 2013, 09:37:41 AM »
The following is an email I received.  I fully understand why many people are still confused about the function of a VFD compared to a valve.  I will try to explain it again in the second post.

Hello
I found your website while I was looking for a small (5 gallon) pressure tank for a home water system.  But your statement “VFD Does Not Save Energy” caught my eye. 
 
Careful about making such a statement about VFDs in general .  If your argument is about VFD use on pools and residential homes I would not argue with you based on the fact that the cost is not justified.   However, in commercial buildings and up through industrial applications the whole purpose of using a VFD is to right size the pump for a given application.  Pumps are typically sized for either the “100 year flood”, need plus safety factor, or for a near term anticipated increase in capacity requirement.  In this case current flow requirements are less than that of the pump’s Best Efficiency Point (BEP) causing the user to restrict its flow with a valve (effectively changing the system curve) in order to run at the correct flow demand.  This wastes power and causes undue stress on the pump.  It is not practical to dynamically change the impeller characteristics for varying flow requirements so the only way to “right size” a pump (in an effort to not require pinching the flow with a valve) is to slow the pump down.  This in turn does reduce power consumption (saving energy) and wear on the pump.  I am only arguing with you about your general statement that VFDs are a scam.

1289
Pumps, Wells, Tanks, Controls / Re: Understanding Tank Sizing
« on: January 14, 2013, 12:34:29 PM »
The CSV1A would probably be best for your application.  We sell these for $206.00.  But if you need to replace the tank as well, you might consider the Pside-Kick kit that comes with the CSV1A, pressure switch, gauge, fittings, pressure relief valve, 4.5 gallon size tank, wall mount brackets, even a roll of Teflon tape for only $399.00.  This kit puts the pressure tank and pressure switch close together as they need to be.  Then you can add an additional tank if you want anywhere after the CSV.

1290
Pumps, Wells, Tanks, Controls / Re: Understanding Tank Sizing
« on: January 14, 2013, 12:18:15 PM »
You have done a very good job mapping out the demands and how many times the pump will cycle on and off.  The only thing you did not take into consideration was the number of times the pump would already be running for a demand like a shower, while at the same time in another part of the house someone flushes a toilet, washes their toothbrush, or uses water in any other way.  When the pump is already running, supplying water to a shower or washing machine, and someone elsewhere uses water for any reason, the pump does not see an extra cycle.

Since most people are up and getting ready for school or work at the same time, we have found that the pump may run continuously for an hour or so.  The CSV varies the flow to match a shower, then opens more for an additional shower, even more if someone flushes a toilet, then resets itself to a single shower again.  All of this happens with only one cycle.  Only when a toilet is flushed by itself, during a time when no other water is being used in the house, will the single toilet flush cause a cycle on its own.  This actually cuts the number of cycles you have added up in half if not less.

But even considering that every toilet flush will cause a cycle as you describe, the difference between 40 cycles and 20 cycles per day is not going to reduce the life of the pump by very much.  Real damage from cycling occurs when running sprinklers or a heat pump for many hours a day, which can cause hundreds of cycles per day.  Eliminating all these cycles for long term uses of water far outweighs an extra 20 cycles per day for using the small pressure tank method. 

I have even been known to run my irrigation zones during the same time everyone is getting ready for school and work.  This way the pump only cycles once in the morning, because it stays running the entire time everyone in the house is using water.  Not that overlapping the irrigation zone with a high demand time for the house is necessary, but it does eliminate ALL cycling during this period of time.

I also use to believe that a 20 gallon size tank with 5 gallons of usable water was needed.  However, many installers, putting in thousands of systems with a small tank, over more than a dozen years or so, have taught me that a large tank is not necessary.  Although, a CSV will work with any size tank, so use whatever size you are comfortable with.  I just believe that in most cases, any larger than a 4.5 gallon tank is a waste of space and money.

Thanks Dave

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