1411
Valve Tech / Re: New CSV to replace my other
« on: January 14, 2012, 08:36:27 AM »
The dimensions are on this web page under products. Scroll down until you find the valve your looking 4.
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1412
Valve Tech / Re: Positioning and configuration
« on: January 11, 2012, 11:18:42 AM »
Just wondering if you got things working like you wanted.
1413
Valve Tech / Re: New CSV to replace my other
« on: January 11, 2012, 11:12:21 AM »
Yes the CSV1W will handle iron better than the CSV1 plastic valves. However, the CSV1Z is the best valve we have for debris and iron because it has more tolerance.
1414
Pumps, Wells, Tanks, Controls / Re: Some Questions From a Newby
« on: December 19, 2011, 03:25:45 PM »
The water filter I have is Whirlpool DWHBB that is rated for 100psi and uses a 25 micron filter. It has 1" threaded connections so it appears the filter would work in this application before the CSV. Would that assumption be correct? Can I then use the plastic CSV1 as long as I don't want to control pressure?
Your pump can build 173 PSI. You can’t use a filter before the CSV that is only rated at 100 PSI, unless it is at least 170’ to the static water level in your well. If it is more than 170’ to water, you will have less than 100 PSI before the CSV, and you can filter before the CSV. If you can filter before the CSV, then the CSV1-50 valve will work fine. If you can’t filter before the CSV, sediment will make the CSV1-50 leak, so use the CSV1Z.
Are you saying that a larger pressure tank actually works against the best operation of the CSV and constant water demand such as for a shower?
Larger tanks with a CSV actually give you the best of both worlds. You can use a lot of water from the tank without the pump even having to start. But when you have long term uses of water, the CSV still maintains a constant pressure and keeps the pump from cycling to death. However, with a large tank, you have to live with decreasing pressure in the shower as the tank empties. You maybe half way through a shower, while the pressure decreases to a trickle and the temp needs more adjustment, before the pump starts and the CSV starts delivering constant pressure. With a small tank, the shower will have constant pressure before you get the temperature adjusted in the shower, but the pump will have to come on for every flush or two, depending on the size of tank you install. So it is a trade off. But the difference in the number of cycles doesn’t normally justify a larger tank, and with the small tank you have good constant pressure all the time.
I was thinking that I didn't want the pump to cycle for a toilet flush (1.6 gal) so would pick a pressure tank with a 2 gallon draw down, which would mean a WellXTrol tank model WX-103 with tank size being 7.6 gallons and draw down at 30/50 = 2.6. Would that work OK?
See above. You are talking about the difference between 1 flush and 3 flushes before the pump starts. It is not going to make much difference. Actually you will find that a sink or shower is normally used at basically the same time as the toilets, so the pump is already running and there is rarely an extra pump cycle for flushing.
If I set my pressure switch to 40/60 and used a 50 PSI CSV what would be the operating pressure of the system? Would you not have to set the CSV to 60 psi with a 40/60 to get 60 psi operating?
The pressure switch off setting always needs to be higher than the setting of the CSV. If you want 60 PSI operating, you need to run a 50/70 pressure switch.
Your pump can build 173 PSI. You can’t use a filter before the CSV that is only rated at 100 PSI, unless it is at least 170’ to the static water level in your well. If it is more than 170’ to water, you will have less than 100 PSI before the CSV, and you can filter before the CSV. If you can filter before the CSV, then the CSV1-50 valve will work fine. If you can’t filter before the CSV, sediment will make the CSV1-50 leak, so use the CSV1Z.
Are you saying that a larger pressure tank actually works against the best operation of the CSV and constant water demand such as for a shower?
Larger tanks with a CSV actually give you the best of both worlds. You can use a lot of water from the tank without the pump even having to start. But when you have long term uses of water, the CSV still maintains a constant pressure and keeps the pump from cycling to death. However, with a large tank, you have to live with decreasing pressure in the shower as the tank empties. You maybe half way through a shower, while the pressure decreases to a trickle and the temp needs more adjustment, before the pump starts and the CSV starts delivering constant pressure. With a small tank, the shower will have constant pressure before you get the temperature adjusted in the shower, but the pump will have to come on for every flush or two, depending on the size of tank you install. So it is a trade off. But the difference in the number of cycles doesn’t normally justify a larger tank, and with the small tank you have good constant pressure all the time.
I was thinking that I didn't want the pump to cycle for a toilet flush (1.6 gal) so would pick a pressure tank with a 2 gallon draw down, which would mean a WellXTrol tank model WX-103 with tank size being 7.6 gallons and draw down at 30/50 = 2.6. Would that work OK?
See above. You are talking about the difference between 1 flush and 3 flushes before the pump starts. It is not going to make much difference. Actually you will find that a sink or shower is normally used at basically the same time as the toilets, so the pump is already running and there is rarely an extra pump cycle for flushing.
If I set my pressure switch to 40/60 and used a 50 PSI CSV what would be the operating pressure of the system? Would you not have to set the CSV to 60 psi with a 40/60 to get 60 psi operating?
The pressure switch off setting always needs to be higher than the setting of the CSV. If you want 60 PSI operating, you need to run a 50/70 pressure switch.
1415
Valve Tech / Re: Positioning and configuration
« on: December 09, 2011, 04:16:07 PM »
Okay, I think I get it and it should work for me. I think I would still put it in the house so I don't have to mess with the well. I haven't had to do anything with it since I moved in 10 years ago. I have no idea how old the pump is, but it still seems to pump plenty of water. I am actually surprised I have not had to replace it.
The average life of a submersible is about 7 years. It depends on how many times it cycles on and off as to whether you are the one that gets 1 year or 14 years. I also forgot to mention that the CSV could also go in a valve box before that tee to the barn, if the frost line in your area isn’t too deep.
The other issue I have is that I have an on demand water heater and it occasionally will kick out at the bottom end of the pressure. Not often enough to be really annoying, but the shower gets cold for a minute when it happens. I have thought about adjusting the bottom pressure up on the pressure switch, but have just never gotten around to doing it knowing that it would cause the pump to cycle more. I specifically put in a larger tank when I replaced it for exactly that reason. If I put the CSV in I think I would also adjust the pressure switch to have a narrower range and not worry as much about the pump cycling.
We sell a lot of CSV’ s to make tankless water heaters work properly. Your actually better off with a CSV and a small tank, as you will still have the problem with the water heater as the pressure in the big tank drops. Narrowing the pressure switch bandwidth is a good way to deal with it. But you are effectively making your tank work like a smaller one. With a small tank even a 20 PSI bandwidth happens quickly, which gets the water heater working quickly as well. At least with a big tank the CSV insures this only happens once, then the constant pressure will keep the heater working for as long as you are in the shower.
I see what you mean by having the high pressure in the line before the CSV. I then have the potential of having "super pressure" at the barn from the time the pressure in the well tank hits the pressure setting of the CSV until the pressure switch cuts out the pump when the pressure in the well tank reaches the set point. It seems this could at least be minimized if the CSV setting was fairly close to the upper end of the pressure window of the well tank, minimizing the time it takes for the well tank to complete it's fill cycle. Have you ever seen issues with high pressure between the pump and the CSV causing any problems with the piping?
The high pressure is not a problem for the pipe or hydrants. But it maybe too much for things like float valves in a stock tank. A float valve really needs to be on the discharge side of a CSV anyway, because it can be one of those long term uses.
The average life of a submersible is about 7 years. It depends on how many times it cycles on and off as to whether you are the one that gets 1 year or 14 years. I also forgot to mention that the CSV could also go in a valve box before that tee to the barn, if the frost line in your area isn’t too deep.
The other issue I have is that I have an on demand water heater and it occasionally will kick out at the bottom end of the pressure. Not often enough to be really annoying, but the shower gets cold for a minute when it happens. I have thought about adjusting the bottom pressure up on the pressure switch, but have just never gotten around to doing it knowing that it would cause the pump to cycle more. I specifically put in a larger tank when I replaced it for exactly that reason. If I put the CSV in I think I would also adjust the pressure switch to have a narrower range and not worry as much about the pump cycling.
We sell a lot of CSV’ s to make tankless water heaters work properly. Your actually better off with a CSV and a small tank, as you will still have the problem with the water heater as the pressure in the big tank drops. Narrowing the pressure switch bandwidth is a good way to deal with it. But you are effectively making your tank work like a smaller one. With a small tank even a 20 PSI bandwidth happens quickly, which gets the water heater working quickly as well. At least with a big tank the CSV insures this only happens once, then the constant pressure will keep the heater working for as long as you are in the shower.
I see what you mean by having the high pressure in the line before the CSV. I then have the potential of having "super pressure" at the barn from the time the pressure in the well tank hits the pressure setting of the CSV until the pressure switch cuts out the pump when the pressure in the well tank reaches the set point. It seems this could at least be minimized if the CSV setting was fairly close to the upper end of the pressure window of the well tank, minimizing the time it takes for the well tank to complete it's fill cycle. Have you ever seen issues with high pressure between the pump and the CSV causing any problems with the piping?
The high pressure is not a problem for the pipe or hydrants. But it maybe too much for things like float valves in a stock tank. A float valve really needs to be on the discharge side of a CSV anyway, because it can be one of those long term uses.
1416
Valve Tech / Re: Positioning and configuration
« on: December 08, 2011, 08:54:39 PM »I think as many people who find this website, I started out by looking for variable speed controls for my well pump. I am very intrigued by the use of this valve. If it performs as advertised, it would be an acceptable, simpler, and lower cost alternative to the electronic speed controls.
I wish I had a nickle for everytime I have heard that since 1993. That is how long we have been replacing VFD's, which is also what we started with. I guarentee it to perform as advertised. It really is a simpler, lower cost, and superior to VFD's in many ways. That is actually one of the reasons why you haven't heard of it in all these years. People who make their living on pumps, motors, and controls might say they are trying to increase the life expectancy, efficiency, and reduce the "life cycle costs", but that would really be counter productive in terms of "cash flow". So when offered a proven way to make that happen, most will quickly deny knowing of any alternative to a VFD. I actually heard two of my good distributors say that very thing at a trade show last week. They want to keep my product exclusive in their area, so they can make sure no one knows about it. I have been dealing with this problem for nearly twenty years. That is why I have so much on this web page. Thank goodness for the Internet. It makes it hard to keep a good product or idea secret anymore.
Another reason you've never heard of us in all these years is because when something works, people forget they ever had a problem. No one comes to the Internet or forums when they have a CSV and their water system is working perfectly. They just expect water to come squirting out any faucet, at the correct flow and pressure, anytime they need it. They just go on with their everyday life and never give it a second thought. A happy customer will never mention the product, but an unhappy customer will tell a thousand people. So I have to toot my own horn, so to speak.
My questions deal with the positioning and configuration of the CSV and associated piping.
My first question, which I think I have already answered for myself is, does the valve need to be in any "up" orientation or can it be placed in any direction? It looks to me like any direction should work since the valves can be placed in the vertical well piping or in a horizontal pipe run in the house. Am I correct?
Only the 2" and larger valves need to be positioned in a certain way, only to get the air out of the upper chamber. The smaller valves can be mounted in any position.
My second question is about the statement that there can not be any water uses/outlets before this valve. Is this because the valve will be damaged by reverse flow, or because the valve will not function properly in reverse flow, or because any outlet before the valve would not have the benefit of the constant pressure? I ask this because I live on a farmette and the water in the barn is run from the same well and pressure tank that the house is and the split in the line is out in the yard, probably just outside the pitless connection on the well casing. I would rather have the valve in the house so I can easily adjust it and control the pressure in the house and let the barn pressure be whatever it will be since all I use that water for is filling stock tanks for the horses and chickens. It seems to me that a simple arrangement of a bypass loop with a reverse direction check valve in it would allow the water to flow at high volumes to the barn from the house like it does now, but would allow the CSV to control the pressure in the house when water is being used in the house. If damage to the valve occurs in the reverse flow condition, a check valve before the CSV would prevent any water from flowing backward through the CSV and allow all of the reverse flow to go around the CSV through the reverse check valve in the bypass loop. There would be no issues with negative pressures anywhere in the line since once the flow stops the pressure would equalize on both sides of any or all check valves in this configuration.
Thirdly, other than the bypass loop mentioned above, would it be a good idea to install a bypass loop around and isolation valves before and after the CSV in case a problem does arise where the CSV needs to be serviced or removed so that the system does not need to be depressurized and drained to do so?
It won't hurt anything for water to flow backwards through the CSV. However, it will only flow backwards at 1 GPM until the pressure is lower than the setting of the CSV. Then it will open fully until the pump comes on and the water starts coming from the other direction. So the bypass around the CSV with a reversed check valve is a good idea an we do it all the time. You have to also be aware that at times there maybe as much as 150 PSI on the lines and faucets prior to the CSV, and that your pump will still cycle while using water from these lines. Small amouts of use as filling a bucket or two is OK, but longer uses require using all the water the pump can produce to keep the pressure from getting too high and from cycling the pump to death.
This is one reason we make CSV's that will fit in the well itself, so that everything will have perfect control, not just part of the system. And it is overthinking to think you will need to adjust or even see the CSV. It will be fine in the well because you will never have to touch it.
Sorry, I'm a process engineer and this is just how my mind works. I hope I didn't cause any brain trauma.
NO problem there. I appreciate the good questions on the forum. It is not my brain having trauma that I am worried about. Sorry, just how MY miind works. Cary
Thanks
1417
Pumps, Wells, Tanks, Controls / Re: Overpressure
« on: December 08, 2011, 08:16:27 PM »
Barry
Now you are having a problem with the pressure switch. If the switch is located in the correct position (close to the pressure tank), and see's the same pressure as the gauge you are reading, then the pressure switch should be shutting the pump off. Either the switch is set too high, the tube to the switch is clogged, or the switch is not working properly. The points in the pressure switch should open at the correct pressure and shut off power to the pump the same way a light switch does.
I like to have a pressure relief valve after the CSV for this reason. If the pressure switch fails as it apparently has in this case, the pressure will rise to 75 PSI, (the setting if the pressure relief valve) and this valve will start dumping the 1 GPM it is getting from the CSV. This will of course help from blowing the pipeline, but it is also importantant to give the 1 GPM coming through the CSV a place to go so as not to deadhead and burn up the pump.
Now you are having a problem with the pressure switch. If the switch is located in the correct position (close to the pressure tank), and see's the same pressure as the gauge you are reading, then the pressure switch should be shutting the pump off. Either the switch is set too high, the tube to the switch is clogged, or the switch is not working properly. The points in the pressure switch should open at the correct pressure and shut off power to the pump the same way a light switch does.
I like to have a pressure relief valve after the CSV for this reason. If the pressure switch fails as it apparently has in this case, the pressure will rise to 75 PSI, (the setting if the pressure relief valve) and this valve will start dumping the 1 GPM it is getting from the CSV. This will of course help from blowing the pipeline, but it is also importantant to give the 1 GPM coming through the CSV a place to go so as not to deadhead and burn up the pump.
1418
Pumps, Wells, Tanks, Controls / Re: Overpressure
« on: December 08, 2011, 08:14:38 AM »
You should have been getting "blowoff" from the pressure relief valve from the minute you installed the CSV. Because the pressure relief valve should not be installed prior to the CSV, only after the CSV. Whcih CSV do you have? It sounds like it is just set too low. Call us and we will talk you through the setting. 800-652-0207
1419
Pumps, Wells, Tanks, Controls / Re: Corrosive Well Water
« on: December 03, 2011, 06:07:42 PM »
If the water will eat copper, it will probably work on the low lead brass as well. We can use one of the CSV1 plastic valves and make a manifold out of PVC. We do this a lot for RO and DI water so I am sure it would work in your water as well.
1420
Pumps, Wells, Tanks, Controls / Re: Electricity saved each month by using cycle stop valve?
« on: November 21, 2011, 08:26:00 AM »
Hi Melissa
The CSV will make a variable flow pump out of your 10 GPM pump. So instead of the pump always producing 10 GPM, and cycling on and off while you are using water, the CSV makes the pump match the amount being used and the pump runs continuously while any faucet is on.
Cycling on and off destroys every component in your pump system. The check valve has apparently slammed shut so many times from cycling until it failed. Now your pump is coming on even when you are not using any water. This is why your electric bill is so high. The electric bill from a pump, when being used just for the house, should be no mre than about 5 bucks a month. Since the pump is running a minute and twenty seconds then staying off for only 40 seconds, it is running for 16 hours a day even though you are not using any water.
Replacing the check valve so the pump only comes on when you use water is the only way to get the electric bill under control. Adding a CSV would have saved energy by not letting your check valve be destroyed. Once you get the check valve repaired, the electric bill will only be 5 bucks a month, and the CSV won't reduce the electric bill any further.
The CSV works fine with any size tank. You just don't need a very large tank because of how the CSV works, but a larger tank won't hurt anything.
The CSV will make a variable flow pump out of your 10 GPM pump. So instead of the pump always producing 10 GPM, and cycling on and off while you are using water, the CSV makes the pump match the amount being used and the pump runs continuously while any faucet is on.
Cycling on and off destroys every component in your pump system. The check valve has apparently slammed shut so many times from cycling until it failed. Now your pump is coming on even when you are not using any water. This is why your electric bill is so high. The electric bill from a pump, when being used just for the house, should be no mre than about 5 bucks a month. Since the pump is running a minute and twenty seconds then staying off for only 40 seconds, it is running for 16 hours a day even though you are not using any water.
Replacing the check valve so the pump only comes on when you use water is the only way to get the electric bill under control. Adding a CSV would have saved energy by not letting your check valve be destroyed. Once you get the check valve repaired, the electric bill will only be 5 bucks a month, and the CSV won't reduce the electric bill any further.
The CSV works fine with any size tank. You just don't need a very large tank because of how the CSV works, but a larger tank won't hurt anything.
1421
Valve Tech / Re: New CSV to replace my other
« on: November 12, 2011, 09:23:24 AM »
The brass valve have what is called "reduced pressure falloff". Which means the more water you use the lower the constant pressure will be. When set at 55 PSI while running about 2 GPM, you will have about 45 PSI when using 20 GPM. If you need 55 PSI while running the sprinklers at 20 GPM, all you need to do is adjust the CSV to 65 PSI while you are running 2 GPM.
1422
Valve Tech / Re: CSV model for new system?
« on: November 01, 2011, 08:09:40 AM »
The CSV1 with the CSC1 coupling is stronger than the pipe in the well. It takes 3400# to pull the valve apart. It is not a weak link in the drop pipe. It needs to be installed as close under the pitless as possible. Usually about a 2' nipple between the pitless and the CSV1 is needed to let the CSV be centered away from the casing wall like the pitless. The CSV1 usually vents air, but when submerged works well under water. It just needs a small hole drilled in the spring cage to make it easier to vent water.
The CSV1 can also be installed in the basement or house. You just need to be aware that it could leak a small amount of water on the floor. (About 1 gallon per week) Installation over a a drip pan or sump pit is preferred.
The CSV1 is less expensive and has better flow characteristics than the metal valves. Which makes it worth dealing with a possible small leak by installing it in the well or close to a sump.
The CSV1 can also be installed in the basement or house. You just need to be aware that it could leak a small amount of water on the floor. (About 1 gallon per week) Installation over a a drip pan or sump pit is preferred.
The CSV1 is less expensive and has better flow characteristics than the metal valves. Which makes it worth dealing with a possible small leak by installing it in the well or close to a sump.
1423
Valve Tech / Re: CSV model for new system?
« on: October 31, 2011, 09:13:01 AM »
The CSV160 will work with a 50/70 pressure switch. However, it is not recomended to be installed indoors. Use the CSC1 weight bearing coupling and install the CSV160 in the well. For indoors installation, I recommend the CSV1Z.
Call me at 806-885-4445 or email me at caustin@cyclestopvalves.com and I will help you with the purchase.
Call me at 806-885-4445 or email me at caustin@cyclestopvalves.com and I will help you with the purchase.
1424
Pumps, Wells, Tanks, Controls / Re: installation question
« on: October 31, 2011, 09:09:00 AM »
Motor company says you don't need a shroud for anything less than 2 HP. But I alway use one if I can. Don't worry about it if you can't. The CSV will make the pump produce 1 GPM as long as you are only running 1 GPM from a faucet. 1 GPM is five times as much as the motor needs to stay cool.
1425
Pumps, Wells, Tanks, Controls / Re: Need Help to Eliminate Water Hammer & Possibly Redesign System
« on: October 18, 2011, 10:07:01 AM »
With a 40/60 pressure switch the CSV1W works good at 50 PSI. If you want higher or lower pressure the CSV1Z is more adjustable.