Seems too good to be true

[JohnD]

I recently blew my well pump and the plumber who came to replace it suggested that the small pressure tank was a likely culprit because it would cause the pump to cycle on and off frequently and not let the pump properly cool itself.  He suggested I upgrade to a bigger tank in the near future.  Not wanting to jump into such a big purchase right away, I did some internet research.  I figured out he was spot on with the likely cause of the pump problem and I also found the Cycle Stop Valve website.

My setup is fairly normal (as far as I know).  There is a 20 gal pressure tank with a electric pressure switch, set to approx 40/60.  There is also a pressure release valve, and a hose connection.  The house is 4 bedrooms, 3 baths, no irrigation system, but I do fill a hot tub 4 times a year.  Only 2 adults living in it.  We have the standard issue of rising and falling pressure as the pump kicks in and the tank drains.  There is also a 20" x 4" whole house water filter on the house side of the pressure tank.

If I understand what I'm reading here, the installation of a CSV150 or a CSV1A valve would solve my cycling issues and save me a pot full of money on the installation of a new pressure tank.  And if I read all the instructions correctly, I simply need to install the valve on the line right next to the pressure tank, between it and the well pump?

I had a plumber out today and he was intrigued by the CSV site, but had never heard of such a thing in a residential application.  He was reluctant to say it would work, because he had no experience with it.  He continued to recommend the new pressure tank.  Yes, he may be trying to just make the sale, but I don't think that was his motivation.

Is it really as simple as I've laid it out here or am I missing something?  Why are more residential plumbers not aware that this technology exists?

I'm really just trying to find the best solution for my issue with the well pump and if I can stabilize the pressure also, that would be a bonus.  Thanks for your help and any comments/explanations/recommendations.  If you need more info from me to comment, just let me know what you need.


JD
Bumpass, VA

[Cary Austin]

Thanks for checking with us before you bought that big tank.  You will be glad you did.  In the past, the only way to help with the cycling problem was to use a larger pressure tank.  But even a room full of tanks doesn’t stop the cycling, just slows it down a bit.  The CSV will stop the cycling and let you use a very small tank.  The CSV controls how much flow the pump is putting out, making it exactly match the amount being used at the time, so the water flows right past the tank, straight to the faucet.  So the size of the tank is almost moot. 

We use a 4.5 gallon tank in our Pside-Kick kits that comes with the CSV1A valve, pressure switch, gauge, pressure relief valve, pipe fittings, wall mount brackets, even a roll of Teflon tape for only $399.00.  That is going to be much less than you can get a big tank for, and the CSV will do a better job than a half dozen big tanks.  A 20 gallon tank only holds 5 gallons of water and a 80 gallon tank only holds 20 gallons of water.  So you really can’t get a tank large enough to actually stop the cycling.

I know it sounds to good to be true, but it really is that simple.  The CSV will stop the cycling, allow you to use a very small tank, and will hold the pressure steady instead of the 20 PSI up and down constantly the way you have now.

The plumber trying to sell you a larger tank is doing the same thing we would have told you about 20 years ago.  The CSV was introduced in 1993, and we have never recommended a large tank since then.  The plumbers and pump men don’t know about us because the pump suppliers and manufacturers are trying to keep us a secret.  The CSV is what they consider a “disruptive product”.  It makes pumps last longer, use smaller tanks, and eliminates a lot of other problems with pump systems.  So if you make a living selling pumps and tanks, you don’t want your customers finding out about a CSV.

This is why you found us on the web page.  We have spent 20 years advertising to the pump and plumbing professionals, and finally realized they are not going to tell their customers about something that will save so much money.  So now you can find us on the Internet and educate yourself about what works best.  You no longer need to rely only on the information you get from the installer.  After all, the installer wants to sell you what makes him the most money, so even if he knows about Cycle Stop Valves, he probably won’t mention them to you.

[JohnD]

Cary, Thank you for the prompt reply.

I'm still wondering about a few things..
  -  when the water demand from the house is done and the CSV closes down to it's 1 GPM nominal flow to fill the tank back up, how can that be good for the well pump?  It seems that with only a small amount of water flowing, and the pump trying it's damndest to pump water, that there wouldn't be enough to keep the pump cool after running 10 minutes to run a shower or 3 hours to fill a hot tub?
  -  with a setup as I described, which one of the valves do you believe would be the better choice & why?
  -  would it be better to swap out my 20 gal tank for a smaller one to minimize the pressure drop as the tank drains or can I stick with the setup I have and just add the CSV?
  -  my water comes into the house via 3/4" PEX tubing and eventually transitions to copper long after it passes the pressure tank and BB filter.  Does that make any difference which valve I should use?

Again,  thank you for the replies as I try to figure out which direction to go with this project.


JD

[Cary Austin]

1 GPM is actually about 5 times more flow than needed to keep the pump and motor cool.  And pumps like this are “counter intuitive” or work just the opposite of what you might think.  It is actually harder on the pump/motor to produce high flow than low flow.  Water weighs about 8.3 pounds per gallon.  So at 1 GPM the pump is only lifting 8.3 pounds per minute, and at 10 GPM the pump is lifting 83 pounds per minute.  The amp draw of the motor will drop by 30% to 40% when the flow is restricted to 1 GPM.  The low amp draw makes the motor run cooler and work easier. (counter intuitive)

I recommended the CSV1A that comes with the Pside-Kick kit because it covers a wide rage of pumps and pressure, and you didn’t tell me anything about your pump.  But we have other valves that may work as well.  You just need to give me some info on the pump like horsepower, GPM, setting depth, and we can make sure you get the right valve.

No matter which CSV you use, it just needs to be installed prior to the pressure tank or any water lines that tee off the main line.  Filters and other things won’t make any difference to the CSV.

[JohnD]

Cary, unfortunately the details on my pump are 100 miles away from me, sitting right on the pressure tank that is under discussion at the moment.

I want to say it's a 3/4 HP pump and the well is 100' deep, but I know better than to rely on my memory for such things.  I'll touch base in a week or so when I'm back down at the house.

Thanks.


JD

[Cary Austin]

The CSV1A or Pside-Kick kit will work with all the pumps in the following link at the particular depths listed.  So I am sure it will fit your application.  But if you have more specifics about the pump and well, we maybe able to use other CSV's as well.
http://www.cyclestopvalves.com/prod_psidekick_apps.html

[JohnD]

Sorry for the delay in this thread.  I had to gather the info about the pump.

The pump is a Goulds 07GS05422  1/2 HP  7GPM pump  The top of the water column is 5ft below ground level and the pump hangs at 90ft

Based on this information it seems to fit onto the compatibility chart/link you posted above, but the one piece that still concerns me is the water pressure that will build up between the CSV valve and the pump when it closes to it's 1 GPM mode and the pressure tank fills back up.  Your chart even calls that out ........Note:  Pressure rating of pipe installed before the pside-kick must be rated to handle the maximum head or pressure that your pump can build  I've looked in multiple places on line and can't find anything that describes the water pressure that the pump is capable of in these circumstances.  I would like to make sure that the PEX between the well and the house will stand up to having the CSV1A throttling the volume back but water still being pumped from the well.

Thanks.

[Cary Austin]

The back pressure information is found on the pump curve.  The 7GS05 can build a max of 300' of head.  Subtract from that the static water level of 5', and the back pressure will be 295' of head which divided by 2.31 is 127 PSI.  Alsmost any pipe will be rated for more than 127 PSI.  And you should know that the burst pressure of most plastic pipe is 2 to 5 times the rated pressure.  So 127 PSI back pressure is nothing and you will be fine using a CSV on that pump.

[JohnD]

Cary,  I got back down to the property for the holidays and have installed the CSV1A valve on my existing system.  The constant pressure works exactly as advertised, but no matter what I do, once the demand is shut off downstream, the pressure tank fills and the pump shuts off in less than 30 seconds.  If I understand the directions correctly, I want the fill up to take at least 2 minutes,  Here are my settings...

Pump on at 50
CSV1A set to 50
Pump off at 72

Pressure tank is a Sta-Rite PS42T-T02 pressurized to 60 psi  (pressure seems high, but that was where it was when I started.  I adjusted it to 40 psi and it just filled faster)

Any thoughts or words of wisdom?

Thanks

JD

[Cary Austin]

If that is a 42 gallon tank it should hold about 10 gallons of water.  So with the CSV at 50 and a 50/72 pressure switch it should be taking 10 minutes to fill the tank to 72.  The fact that the tank already had 60 psi in it makes me think the bladder is busted.  Check to see how much water you get out when draining the tank from 72 to 50, before the pump starts.  30 seconds of run time is ok, but I could get that much with a 4.5 gallon tank that holds only 1 gallon of water.

[JohnD]

From 72 to 50, I got around a gallon and a half of water.  As you suspected this was the problem.  I decided to drain the rest of the water from the tank and start over again.  I removed around 15 gallons of water and then charged the bladder to 40 lbs.  Closed the drain, turned the pump back on and it fills at a much more desirable rate.

Now I get about 4 gallons of water from 72 to 50 and it takes 2:40 to fill back up. 

What are your thoughts on these various settings/results?  Should I leave well enough alone or try to fine tune a bit more?

I appreciate your help and advice.

JD

[Cary Austin]

With 50/72 pressure switch setting you could turn up the CSV to 60.  You would have more pressure in the house and the run time to fill the tank would be reduced to about 1 minute.  Although if you are happy, there is nothing wrong with the settings you have.  I am afraid your tank is bad and will need to be replaced.  If so, you only need to go back with a 4.5 gallon size tank.