Need Help to Eliminate Water Hammer & Possibly Redesign System

[asolarpump]

Hi,
I could use some help to eliminate a tremendous water hammer problem that my wife & I remember having started when a check valve was installed years back.  Our questions are:

So, can you tell me…will a CSV product eliminate the water hammer? Where would I install it in this system? Do I need to remove the check valve?  If the 80- gallon pressure tank is bad, should I replace it with another 80 gallon tank or a smaller one? The less often a pump has to run, the better off I am. I have lots of detaill below to help answer any questions you might have.

We are on a 525’ well that has a 2 hp Jacuzzi pump that pumps into a 3,000 gallon steel storage tank outside the house. The tank does not have a working float in it so it is filled when we turn the breaker in the electrical panel box on to pump the water.  The fact that it does not have a working float is indicative of 1) the type of well driller we used: he never installed one, and 2) of the type of 2nd well driller we hired to install the float and clean the tank…he cleaned the tank, installed the float, and left without getting it to work.  And, when I asked why it did not work he stated he was not an electrician, and when I asked for a recommendation the one he gave me said he had no clue what I wanted or how to work on a well.  Go figure…... Par for the course in this area.

After the 3,000 gall storage tank, there is a check valve that prevents water from going back into the storage tank.  This check valve was installed years after the house was built & moved into when a plumber who finally did agree to come out & work on our system to replace 1 expansion tank, that had been placed on the incorrect side, per Crown Mfg, of the 40 gallon indirect water tank.  He also added an expansion tank on the piping coming off the Crown Mfg radiant in-floor heat boiler, which also heats our domestic water. This plumber also rerouted the pressure relief valve as he said the original piping was against code…how could the pressure relief valve force water to the 2nd story to the drain, without some kind of pump?  Anyway, this plumber stated a check valve was needed and installed one, in addition to installing multiple ball valves to allow us to turn water off at appropriate locations.

I tell you of the plumber issues we have had as it gives the background and why I need to do this myself.

Anyway, after the check valve is a Culligan water softener, using potassium, and then a 220V jet pump..our 3rd one.  The 1st 2 quit after the 3,000 gallon tank was emptied because we forgot to turn on the breaker to fill the tank…so much for having a storage tank to avoid needing to call a pump guy immediately if the well pump quit. One time was us, the 2nd time was a friend who did not know about checking the storage tank water level.

After the 220v jet pump is a 80 gallon pressure tank.  After the pressure tank is the boiler, indirect water tank, and the house fixtures…toilet, showers, etc.

Once the jet pump kicks / shuts off there is a TREMENDOUS water hammer...it is so loud and seems to be getting worse.
I am unsure if the 80 gallon pressure tank is good but I hope to check it on Sunday, Oct 16.  I have an 80 gall pressure tank as I believed a larger pressure tank would eliminate the need for the jet pump to run often.

Thanks for reading my book and helping me out.   We are so tired of this issue, and of calling plumbers who only want to work in the city where they can drive quickly to their next job or to the plumbing supply houses, vs. spending 1 hr driving minimum to go pick up soomething they may have forgotten, or to get lunch.  I live near Albuquerque, NM

[Karen Austin]

I am going to start with your first statement and that was the problem started when the check valve was installed.  Multiple check valves tend to work against each other and water hammer is one of the symptoms of that.  My first suggestion is going to be to remove (or drill a hole through)that newest check valve.  Your pump coming out of that storage tank has a check valve or foot valve on it.  You do not need more than one (although that has been a common myth for some time). 

And as you can see,  it is a false sense of security counting on that storage tank to be full when your pump quits you.  It could just as well be empty.  We do however make a product called the Cycle Sensor that would turn off your booster pump when the storage tank ran dry.  At least protecting your booster pump from that early death. 

And now that you understand that stored water is not always available when you need it, you could eliminate a large amount of frustration by losing that storage tank.  I understand your concern about being without water when your pump is out because I also work from a water well at my house but two pump is twice the trouble and if we add a Cycle Stop Valve to your 2HP submersible,  we can make it last as long as possible either way.

The pressure relief valve and the expansion tank are safety features and your plumber did you a service making sure those were installed correctly.  The pressure relief valve will open if your pressure switch fails to turn off your pump and pressure builds higher than it is set to hold thus keeping you from blowing up a pressure tank or line.  Hopefully it is not set higher than the pressure your pump can build?  That is the only catch with that product.

Lets start by getting rid of that additional check and see if that solves the water hammer problem.  If you decide to keep the storage tank..you will need a CS1PH1-2HP Cycle Sensor to keep you safe if the storage tank runs dry. 

If you keep the two pump system,  we can also add a Cycle Stop valve to your jet pump so that it comes on and stays on and softens the starts and stops of your water pump thus taking all of the surge/water hammer out of the rest of the system.

Hope this is a start to getting your water system where you do not have to think about it but every 15 or so years!!

[asolarpump]

Hi,
My apologies if I said there was more than one check valve in this plumbing system.  There is not.  There is only check valve so there are not multiple valves. There was never a check valve installed when the house was plumbed and a subsequent plumber said that was incorrect, he is the expert, so I agreed to have him install one, the 1st & only check valve in this system.

EXCELLENT...I like safety...so the Cycle Sensor will know when the 3,000 gallon tank is dry, and no water is being pumped, so it will shut off the jet pump, preventing me from having to buy another one int he future.  And, once I do get the float in the tank working, if it ever failed and I did not know it, the Cycle Sensor would still be there to help prevent pump failure.

Hmmmm.....lose the 3,000 gallon storage tank...drastic step to take....it is not frustrating to us to have it and I like the extra comfort it provides, especially now that I never let it drop to less than 1,500 gallons at it's lowest. 

The pressure relief valve is just a "standard" one you buy at the plumbing supply store..it is not settable...And, it is on top of the Crown boiler and there is one on top of the Crown Mega Stor indirect water tank.  What should I check to make sure the pressure relief valve setting is appropriate?

Ok, I got to the bottom of your reply and see that:
1) I can keep the storage tank
2) I need a CS1PH1-2HP Cycle Sensor
3) I need a Cycle Stop Valve added to the jet pump


And, again, there is only 1 check valve in this sytem right now, between the 3,000 gallon storage tank and the jet pump, allowiing water to flow out of the storage tank but preventing the water inside the house from flowing back into the tank

So, what Cycle Stop Valve do I need?  And, do I buy from you on-line or is there a distributor I need to go thru?

Thak you so much for the help.  I do feel I am on the right path now.  15 years?  GREAT!

[Karen Austin]

I am almost sure that the jet pump either has a check valve on the discharge or a foot valve on the intake...otherwise the diaphragm tank on the discharge side of the jet pump would have been leaking/forcing water back through the pump into the storage tank until your pressure dropped low enough for the pump to come back on even when you were not pumping water.  For example,  if your pressure tank is pressured up to 60 psi and you do not have a check valve on your pump when your pump stops pumping,  that pressure tank will empty right back into that storage tank because 60psi is more pressure than the storage tank is holding and the higher pressure will win.  Unless you noticed that happening,  there is a check valve somewhere on the pump side of things.  What HP is the jet pump or a model number if you have it?  That will help me figure out which Cycle Stop Valve you need.

[Hoss]

My system is almost exactly like this one.  I have a deep low yield well which is pumped by a 3/4 hp submersible to a 2500 gallon storage tank.  From the storage tank I have a jet pump providing pressure to my bladder tank and subsequently, my house and yard.  My storage tank has 2 floats in it.  The first or highest float keeps the storage tank topped off.  When the float drops, the sub pump comes on to fill approx. the top 200 gallons of the storage tank.  The 2nd float is about halfway down the storage tank.  This float provides power to my jet pump and is always closed unless my storage tank drops below half full.  When that happens, the float drops (opens) and shuts power off to my jet pump, thus I have no water pressure but still have approx. 1400 gallons of water. 

When this happens, I know something is wrong with the sub pump side of things so I go into complete 'conservation' mode, call my well guy if I can't figure out the sub pump problem.  I then pull up the mid point float, flip it up, thus closing the contacts and allowing my jet pump to work.  Therefore while I'm waiting for my well guy, I have 1400 gallons of water that would probably last my wife and I a good week, just in case my well guy couldn't come right over.  It's a great system, takes some wiring but is well worth it. 

Oh yes, I have a CSV on my system which is the best things since sliced bread.  Works fantastic, I highly recommend it.  I have the CSVW1 brass adjustable.  Buy it, you will never regret it, and do not buy a competitors like I did at first.  Worse mistake I've made.

Anyway, I just wanted to write to say that waiting for the storage tank to run dry and providing something to keep the jet pump from burning up seems way to risky for me.  Make the storage tank work for you and you can sleep at night knowing your going to have water because you have a storage tank full of it.

Hoss

[asolarpump]

Hi,
The current pump, bought when needed quickly is a Lowe's brand: Utilitech #3134, 15 GPM shallow well jet pump.  And, before the sparks fly about how terrible a pump it is. it does work and has worked flawlessly in the 2 years we have had it.

The previous jet pump was a Waterace #RTS5,  1/2 hp, which I believe is a Home Depot pump.  It seems the only times the pump burns up is after hours on a weekend when the plumbing supply shops are closed. Besides, not many of the plumbing supply shops will sell retail anyway from what we have found so please keep the comments about these pump brands to yourself.  Thank you.

The first pump was a Goulds 3/4 hp model # C48A94A06.  I gave you all the pumps I have as I will eventually get around to getting new impellers for them so I have them as back-ups if needed, and if not needed, perhaps I can keep the best one..the Goulds..and sell the other 2 pumps.

I like the idea of 2 floats in the storage tank so thank you for that idea, and for the great confirmation of the CSV pump.

I had no clue there might be a check valve in the actual pump itself.  Thanks for checking to see if any of these pumps has a check valve built0in..your description makes sense to me so I bet they all did, and therefore I can remove the check valve we had added to the system.  But, I will wait for your reply.

[Cary Austin]

Jet pumps don't have built in check valves.  But you must have had one somewhere in the line, or it would never have worked properly.  Waterace and Utilitech are both Pentair pumps I think.  There are made with the same parts as the Sta-Rite brand, just have cheap plastic housings.  Several brand name pump companies have low grade units they sell at the box stores under a different name.  Probably as good as any these days.

The two float thing in the tank is a good idea.  You could even wire up a bypass switch so you don't have to reach into the tank and lift the float to get to the water in the bottom.

[asolarpump]

I am almost sure that the jet pump either has a check valve on the discharge or a foot valve on the intake...otherwise the diaphragm tank on the discharge side of the jet pump would have been leaking/forcing water back through the pump into the storage tank until your pressure dropped low enough for the pump to come back on even when you were not pumping water......What HP is the jet pump or a model number if you have it?  That will help me figure out which Cycle Stop Valve you need.

I was going off this reply about a check valve in the jet pump.  I have never seen a check valve in this piping anywhere.  The water comes out of the bottom of the 3,000 gallon storage tank and there is a gate valve there.  From that point the pipe enters the house and then a 90 degree fitting is there to take the pipe/water up about 6 feet to the 1st floor ceiling.  It then turns another 90 degrees and goes another 10 feet or so in the ceiling joists where it turns another 90 degrees to go about 18 feet through the ceiling where it turns another 90 degrees and drops down inside the the mechanical room.  The piping that I can see....from the tank to the gate valve to where it enters the house...and from about 4 feet up in the wall in the mechanical room, there is no check valve. except for the one the subsequent plumber installed......because he could not see one anywhere in that line either. 

So, any thought on which CSV I need? I have the cycle sensor part #. Thanks. 

[Cary Austin]

With a 40/60 pressure switch the CSV1W works good at 50 PSI.  If you want higher or lower pressure the CSV1Z is more adjustable.