Author Topic: Positioning and configuration  (Read 8444 times)

jrbyrum

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Positioning and configuration
« on: December 08, 2011, 01:00:00 PM »
I think as many people who find this website, I started out by looking for variable speed controls for my well pump.  I am very intrigued by the use of this valve.  If it performs as advertised, it would be an acceptable, simpler, and lower cost alternative to the electronic speed controls.

My questions deal with the positioning and configuration of the CSV and associated piping. 

My first question, which I think I have already answered for myself is, does the valve need to be in any "up" orientation or can it be placed in any direction?  It looks to me like any direction should work since the valves can be placed in the vertical well piping or in a horizontal pipe run in the house.  Am I correct?

My second question is about the statement that there can not be any water uses/outlets before this valve.  Is this because the valve will be damaged by reverse flow, or because the valve will not function properly in reverse flow, or because any outlet before the valve would not have the benefit of the constant pressure?  I ask this because I live on a farmette and the water in the barn is run from the same well and pressure tank that the house is and the split in the line is out in the yard, probably just outside the pitless connection on the well casing.  I would rather have the valve in the house so I can easily adjust it and control the pressure in the house and let the barn pressure be whatever it will be since all I use that water for is filling stock tanks for the horses and chickens.  It seems to me that a simple arrangement of a bypass loop with a reverse direction check valve in it would allow the water to flow at high volumes to the barn from the house like it does now, but would allow the CSV to control the pressure in the house when water is being used in the house.  If damage to the valve occurs in the reverse flow condition, a check valve before the CSV would prevent any water from flowing backward through the CSV and allow all of the reverse flow to go around the CSV through the reverse check valve in the bypass loop.  There would be no issues with negative pressures anywhere in the line since once the flow stops the pressure would equalize on both sides of any or all check valves in this configuration.

Thirdly, other than the bypass loop mentioned above, would it be a good idea to install a bypass loop around and isolation valves before and after the CSV in case a problem does arise where the CSV needs to be serviced or removed so that the system does not need to be depressurized and drained to do so?

Sorry, I'm a process engineer and this is just how my mind works.  I hope I didn't cause any brain trauma.

Thanks

Cary Austin

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Re: Positioning and configuration
« Reply #1 on: December 08, 2011, 08:54:39 PM »
I think as many people who find this website, I started out by looking for variable speed controls for my well pump.  I am very intrigued by the use of this valve.  If it performs as advertised, it would be an acceptable, simpler, and lower cost alternative to the electronic speed controls.

I wish I had a nickle for everytime I have heard that since 1993.  That is how long we have been replacing VFD's, which is also what we started with.  I guarentee it to perform as advertised.  It really is a simpler, lower cost, and superior to VFD's in many ways.  That is actually one of the reasons why you haven't heard of it in all these years.  People who make their living on pumps, motors, and controls might say they are trying to increase the life expectancy, efficiency, and reduce the "life cycle costs", but that would really be counter productive in terms of "cash flow".  So when offered a proven way to make that happen, most will quickly deny knowing of any alternative to a VFD.  I actually heard two of my good distributors say that very thing at a trade show last week.  They want to keep my product exclusive in their area, so they can make sure no one knows about it.  I have been dealing with this problem for nearly twenty years.  That is why I have so much on this web page.  Thank goodness for the Internet.  It makes it hard to keep a good product or idea secret anymore.

Another reason you've never heard of us in all these years is because when something works, people forget they ever had a problem.  No one comes to the Internet or forums when they have a CSV and their water system is working perfectly.  They just expect water to come squirting out any faucet, at the correct flow and pressure, anytime they need it.  They just go on with their everyday life and never give it a second thought.  A happy customer will never mention the product, but an unhappy customer will tell a thousand people.  So I have to toot my own horn, so to speak.



My questions deal with the positioning and configuration of the CSV and associated piping. 

My first question, which I think I have already answered for myself is, does the valve need to be in any "up" orientation or can it be placed in any direction?  It looks to me like any direction should work since the valves can be placed in the vertical well piping or in a horizontal pipe run in the house.  Am I correct?

Only the 2" and larger valves need to be positioned in a certain way, only to get the air out of the upper chamber.  The smaller valves can be mounted in any position.

My second question is about the statement that there can not be any water uses/outlets before this valve.  Is this because the valve will be damaged by reverse flow, or because the valve will not function properly in reverse flow, or because any outlet before the valve would not have the benefit of the constant pressure?  I ask this because I live on a farmette and the water in the barn is run from the same well and pressure tank that the house is and the split in the line is out in the yard, probably just outside the pitless connection on the well casing.  I would rather have the valve in the house so I can easily adjust it and control the pressure in the house and let the barn pressure be whatever it will be since all I use that water for is filling stock tanks for the horses and chickens.  It seems to me that a simple arrangement of a bypass loop with a reverse direction check valve in it would allow the water to flow at high volumes to the barn from the house like it does now, but would allow the CSV to control the pressure in the house when water is being used in the house.  If damage to the valve occurs in the reverse flow condition, a check valve before the CSV would prevent any water from flowing backward through the CSV and allow all of the reverse flow to go around the CSV through the reverse check valve in the bypass loop.  There would be no issues with negative pressures anywhere in the line since once the flow stops the pressure would equalize on both sides of any or all check valves in this configuration.

Thirdly, other than the bypass loop mentioned above, would it be a good idea to install a bypass loop around and isolation valves before and after the CSV in case a problem does arise where the CSV needs to be serviced or removed so that the system does not need to be depressurized and drained to do so?

It won't hurt anything for water to flow backwards through the CSV.  However, it will only flow backwards at 1 GPM until the pressure is lower than the setting of the CSV.  Then it will open fully until the pump comes on and the water starts coming from the other direction.  So the bypass around the CSV with a reversed check valve is a good idea an we do it all the time.  You have to also be aware that at times there maybe as much as 150 PSI on the lines and faucets prior to the CSV, and that your pump will still cycle while using water from these lines.  Small amouts of use as filling a bucket or two is OK, but longer uses require using all the water the pump can produce to keep the pressure from getting too high and from cycling the pump to death.

This is one reason we make CSV's that will fit in the well itself, so that everything will have perfect control, not just part of the system.  And it is overthinking to think you will need to adjust or even see the CSV.  It will be fine in the well because you will never have to touch it.



Sorry, I'm a process engineer and this is just how my mind works.  I hope I didn't cause any brain trauma.

NO problem there.  I appreciate the good questions on the forum.  It is not my brain having trauma that I am worried about.  Sorry, just how MY miind works.  Cary

Thanks

jrbyrum

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Re: Positioning and configuration
« Reply #2 on: December 09, 2011, 03:17:53 PM »
Okay, I think I get it and it should work for me.  I think I would still put it in the house so I don't have to mess with the well.  I haven't had to do anything with it since I moved in 10 years ago.  I have no idea how old the pump is, but it still seems to pump plenty of water.  I am actually suprised I have not had to replace it.

The other issue I have is that I have an on demand water heater and it occasionally will kick out at the bottom end of the pressure.  Not often enough to be really annoying, but the shower gets cold for a minute when it happens.  I have thought about adjusting the bottom pressure up on the pressure switch, but have just never gotten around to doing it knowing that it would cause the pump to cycle more.  I specifically put in a larger tank when I replaced it for exactly that reason.  If I put the CSV in I think I would also adjust the pressure switch to have a narrower range and not worry as much about the pump cycling.

I see what you mean by having the high pressure in the line before the CSV.  I then have the potential of having "super pressure" at the barn from the time the pressure in the well tank hits the pressure setting of the CSV until the pressure switch cuts out the pump when the pressure in the well tank reaches the set point.  It seems this could at least be minimized if the CSV setting was fairly close to the upper end of the pressure window of the well tank, minimizing the time it takes for the well tank to complete it's fill cycle.  Have you ever seen issues with high pressure between the pump and the CSV causing any problems with the piping?

Thanks

Cary Austin

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Re: Positioning and configuration
« Reply #3 on: December 09, 2011, 04:16:07 PM »
Okay, I think I get it and it should work for me.  I think I would still put it in the house so I don't have to mess with the well.  I haven't had to do anything with it since I moved in 10 years ago.  I have no idea how old the pump is, but it still seems to pump plenty of water.  I am actually surprised I have not had to replace it.

The average life of a submersible is about 7 years.  It depends on how many times it cycles on and off as to whether you are the one that gets 1 year or 14 years.  I also forgot to mention that the CSV could also go in a valve box before that tee to the barn, if the frost line in your area isn’t too deep.

The other issue I have is that I have an on demand water heater and it occasionally will kick out at the bottom end of the pressure.  Not often enough to be really annoying, but the shower gets cold for a minute when it happens.  I have thought about adjusting the bottom pressure up on the pressure switch, but have just never gotten around to doing it knowing that it would cause the pump to cycle more.  I specifically put in a larger tank when I replaced it for exactly that reason.  If I put the CSV in I think I would also adjust the pressure switch to have a narrower range and not worry as much about the pump cycling.

We sell a lot of CSV’ s to make tankless water heaters work properly.  Your actually better off with a CSV and a small tank, as you will still have the problem with the water heater as the pressure in the big tank drops.  Narrowing the pressure switch bandwidth is a good way to deal with it.  But you are effectively making your tank work like a smaller one.  With a small tank even a 20 PSI bandwidth happens quickly, which gets the water heater working quickly as well.  At least with a big tank the CSV insures this only happens once, then the constant pressure will keep the heater working for as long as you are in the shower.

I see what you mean by having the high pressure in the line before the CSV.  I then have the potential of having "super pressure" at the barn from the time the pressure in the well tank hits the pressure setting of the CSV until the pressure switch cuts out the pump when the pressure in the well tank reaches the set point.  It seems this could at least be minimized if the CSV setting was fairly close to the upper end of the pressure window of the well tank, minimizing the time it takes for the well tank to complete it's fill cycle.  Have you ever seen issues with high pressure between the pump and the CSV causing any problems with the piping?

The high pressure is not a problem for the pipe or hydrants.  But it maybe too much for things like float valves in a stock tank.  A float valve really needs to be on the discharge side of a CSV anyway, because it can be one of those long term uses.


jrbyrum

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Re: Positioning and configuration
« Reply #4 on: December 12, 2011, 09:10:13 AM »
Hi again.

I must be one of the lucky ones as far as pump age goes.  Like I said, mine is at least 10 years old and I'm not sure the previous owners who were here for about 7 years had to change it, so it could be headed for 20 years old.

I really love my tankless water heater.  I can stay in the shower all day long, or multiple people can take showers simultaneously or consecutively, and I never run out of hot water.  This was not true with my old electric tank water heater.

Unfortunately, I live in central Wisconsin, so my frost line is pretty deep.  I know the water line that comes into the house enters at the base of the baesment wall which is about 6 feet below grade.  My assumption is that the line to the well is probably that deep also, so no go on the valve in a box out in the yard.  I also don't know where the tee is out in the yard.

The high pressure in the barn is not a problem.  All the tanks and waterers are filled manual every day so I don't have any float valves.

I'll let you know how things go after I get the valve installed.  It is on its way right now.

Thanks

Cary Austin

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Re: Positioning and configuration
« Reply #5 on: January 11, 2012, 11:18:42 AM »
Just wondering if you got things working like you wanted.