Author Topic: Pump Minimum Flow  (Read 8055 times)

Bob_T

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Pump Minimum Flow
« on: May 31, 2013, 09:26:49 AM »
I have a Goulds 10GS30 pump.  Over the years we've installed a total of four diaphragm tanks, partly to minimize start stop cycles and partly because we like the additional water storage in case of power failures.

Looking at your valves it looks like it cuts the pump flow back to 1 GPM while the pressure tanks are refilling, until the 60 psig pressure shutoff point is reached.  From looking at the Goulds pump curve, it shows the pump minimum flow to prevent overheating at about 2 GPM.  I plan on setting your valve setpoint at about 50 psig.

With your valve, at 1 GPM flow the pump will run for about an hour before the approximately 80 gallon tank drawdown is refilled, assuming a demand drew it down to 40 psig or so?   We have a drip irrigation system so it will draw down to 40 psig.

If I install your valve, do I need to get rid of several storage tanks to prevent excessive pumping time below Goulds' minimum rated flow?  Or will setting the valve setpoint closer to  the pressure switch shutoff point resolve this?    Appreciate any comments you may have.

Thanks,

Bob
« Last Edit: May 31, 2013, 09:30:26 AM by Bob_T »

Cary Austin

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Re: Pump Minimum Flow
« Reply #1 on: May 31, 2013, 10:57:57 AM »
I agree that your 3 HP motor needs about 2 GPM for proper cooling.  The pump curve also shows that 10 GPM, 3 HP pump to deliver 880’ or 380 PSI of backpressure.  So to set the CSV1A at 50 PSI and not have more than 125 PSI differential pressure, the static water level needs to be at 473’ or deeper. 

When the pump has to lift 473’ before the water gets to surface, you will lose 205 PSI of the 380 that pump can build.  So the CSV will only see 175 PSI on the inlet, and with 50 PSI set as the outlet, there is only 125 PSI differential pressure.  A shallower static water level of 415’, would cause a differential pressure across the CSV of 150 PSI, which is the most I would like to see across the valve.  The higher the differential pressure across the CSV, the sooner it will wear out.

There are cases where a pump like this is set at 600’, with a static water level of 100’.   These are usually weak producing wells, so the pump starts when the water level is at 100’ static, and pulls the water level down to 590’ as more water is used.  In this case the backpressure on the CSV, and the pipe before the CSV, will be 338 PSI when the pump first starts and the static level is 100’.

To reduce 338 PSI to the 50 PSI you need, we would use two of the CSV1A valves in series.  The first valve would see the 338 PSI and have a downstream setting of 190 PSI.  The second valves would see the 190 PSI, and have a downstream setting of 50 PSI for the house.  This way there is only about 140 PSI differential across either CSV, and they will last a long time.

The Cycle Stop Valves listed on our literature are the standard valves we use the most.  However, we make specialty valves for different applications all the time.  For instance the first valve in the above scenario would be a CSV1A with a 2 GPM minimum and a spring with an adjustment range of 150 PSI to 300 PSI.  The second CSV1A would have the standard 15-150 PSI spring, but would also be made with a 2 GPM minimum.  We can match a CSV to almost any pump or application.

With a 2 GPM minimum, you just need to make sure your drip system zones use 2+ GPM to keep the pump from cycling.  Multiple tanks as you have are the best way to handle long term flow rates of less than 2 GPM.  But be aware that flows less than 2 GPM will still cause cycling.  If your tanks have 80 gallons of drawdown and you have a 1 GPM drip system, the tanks will be empty in 80 minutes.  With maybe 5 minutes to refill the tanks, that would be a cycle every 85 minutes.

It will only take about 5 minutes to refill tanks with 80 gallons of drawdown, even though the CSV has a minimum of 2 GPM, because you set the CSV at 58 PSI while using a 40/60 pressure switch.  In this way the tanks are almost full before the CSV starts working or limits the flow to 2 GPM.

Bob_T

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Re: Pump Minimum Flow
« Reply #2 on: May 31, 2013, 11:06:37 AM »
Thanks Cary,

I should have provided more info.  The static water level is about 430 feet or so and thanks to a nearby golf course the level is steadily dropping a few feet each year.  Drawdown is only a few feet when the pump is running and the pump is set at 478 feet.  I plan on lowering the pump 40 feet or so.

The drip system draws more than a few GPM - I have tried to balance it so that it draws close to what the pump produces.  The drip system only runs for an hour each zone and it's programmed so that there are hours of time when the drip system is not running between each zone before the drip system activates again. 

It seems like my best solution might be a Cycle Stop valve with a minimum flow of 2 GPM?  Can you tell me what this would cost?

Bob
« Last Edit: May 31, 2013, 11:11:11 AM by Bob_T »

Cary Austin

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Re: Pump Minimum Flow
« Reply #3 on: May 31, 2013, 01:25:13 PM »
You can’t find Cycle Stop Valves at any of the Box Stores.  Most Cycle Stop Valves are sold through professional pump or irrigation contractors.  However, we offer a discounted price to DIY customers.  That would make the CSV1A cost you $206.00, freight included.  You can either call us here at 800-652-0207 or order on line at
http://constantpressurekits.com/products/csv1a

2 GPM special order, you should probably just call us.
« Last Edit: May 31, 2013, 01:27:32 PM by Cary Austin »

Bob_T

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Re: Pump Minimum Flow
« Reply #4 on: May 31, 2013, 10:25:22 PM »
 Cary,

Thanks for your straightforward answers to this and my other post.  I'm now leaning towards getting rid of the extra tanks and keeping only one plus a CS valve.  I do like having the extra reserve storage capacity, but - the tanks are a nuisance and the diaphragms are not reliable, plus they take up space.  Even if I have to replace or repair the CS valve once in awhile due to the higher dP across it I think I'll still be ahead.

Bob

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Re: Pump Minimum Flow
« Reply #5 on: June 03, 2013, 07:47:34 AM »
The bladers in the tank(s) will be much more reliable when using the CSV.  The CSV eliminates most of the pump cycles, which keeps the bladders in the tanks from bending back and forth until they break like bending a wire until it breaks.

And pressure tanks for water storage after a power outage rarely do much good.  Because you can never be sure where the system pressure is before the power goes out.  With a 40/60 pressure switch, Murphys law says your system will be at 41 PSI when the power goes off.  This means your tanks are empty, and you get no water after a power outage.  But if you are lucky enough to be at 60 PSI when the power goes off, you would have a little water in the tanks.  Around my house, Murphys law never works that way though.  :(

Bob_T

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Re: Pump Minimum Flow
« Reply #6 on: June 03, 2013, 02:30:43 PM »
Hi Cary,

I'm looking again at the Goulds 10GS30 pump curve and it shows a minimum recommended flow of 3 GPM.   I'm guessing that the 2 GPM is a nominal rating for the CS valve and as the pressure goes toward the 60 psi pump shutoff setpoint the flow may even drop below 2 GPM?
Probably just a potential issue with large storage capacity where the pump might run quite awhile at 2 GPM.

Or am I just over thinking this?  If you think the 2GPM is sufficient flow for the 10GS30 then I'll take your word for it.

Thanks,
Bob

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Re: Pump Minimum Flow
« Reply #7 on: June 03, 2013, 02:53:56 PM »
That line is just the "recommended" range.  Doesn't mean you can't go lower.  2 GPM is enough to cool the motor, and that is what I go by.  It will only run at 2 GPM long enough to top off the pressure tank, unless you run 2 GPM on something for long periods of time.  The minimum flow is what you set the output to be, except for when it is filling the pressure tank to shut off.