Author Topic: Pressure not maintained with multiple faucets open  (Read 3592 times)

JP Wilson

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Pressure not maintained with multiple faucets open
« on: May 25, 2017, 12:15:09 PM »
I recently installed the pside-kick with a CSV1a in a new home. System worked flawless from installation.

About 2 weeks later I just happened to be next to the pump when it was running and noticed that it was short cycling and it appeared that on/off setting had changed from the preset 40-60psi to 30-50psi and varied around that for a period - all the while system on pressure maintained at 50psi regardless of the number of fixtures running. Concerned about the switch chatter I spoke with customer service and they walked me through an adjustment on the valve which seemed to straighten things out.

Day before yesterday, my wife was in the shower and after a couple of minutes the water stopped. I went to the basement and the pump was running but zero pressure on the gauge. I shut the pump off and closed the ball valve from storage. I reopened the valve and restarted the pump....pressure shot up to operational range. However, the pressure switch was very erratic and would not shut down the pump at 58-60psi. On inspection of the pressure switch the contacts appeared to be heavily charred. I replaced the pressure switch with a Square-D 40-60 switch with a low pressure shutoff feature. I completely disassembled and reassembled the system (I had a couple of small dribbles that were driving me nuts and wanted to make sure they weren't part of the problem) Fired the system back up and set the pressure switch to 40-60. Pump starts at 40psi, maintains 50psi pressure at 1 gpm (or so) flow but will not get to 60psi to shutoff. I had to lower the shutoff pressure to about 58psi for it to consistently function. From a response to an earlier post I tried to adjust the CSV stem for pressure with a higher flow (i.e. multiple fixtures operational). I'm not seeing the pressure response from that adjustment that I saw earlier when customer service walked me through the same operation. 

I cannot find an viable explanation for no pressure condition as I have a constantly full 1000 gal storage tank 2 feet from the pump inlet, essentially force feeding it. The pump ran for about 90-120 seconds in this condition. My system is a Goulds JRS7 pump fed from a local storage tank. The only thing between the tank and inlet is an 1.25" ball valve. I have a 1" check valve on the pressure side of the pump at the input of the CSV. I've attached a photo of the system.

Thanks for your advice and I also have to say that I find it very cool that the guy that is answering these posts is the same guy that invented, manufactures and supports the product. Can't get a much shorter path to the real info than that!


Cary Austin

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Re: Pressure not maintained with multiple faucets open
« Reply #1 on: May 25, 2017, 02:05:46 PM »
I don't understand why the pressure switch changed from 40/60 to 30/50 on its own?  But everything else you are saying sounds like you have a suction leak. I would bet that PVC union on the suction is the problem.  It has an o-ring seal that works great under pressure, but not so good under vacuum.  The J7S will build 70 PSI, so a 40/60 switch should not be a problem.  But when the pump is still running yet the pressure is zero, you have lost prime.  Shutting the pump off lets the air burp out, and the pump will work the next time.  But you will lose prime again.

I would do away with the union on the suction side and just glue it back together.  You have to cut the pipe to work on the pump, but if you get this suction leak problem fixed, you shouldn't have to worry about that for another 20 years or so.

JP Wilson

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Re: Pressure not maintained with multiple faucets open
« Reply #2 on: May 26, 2017, 12:03:46 AM »
Cary, Thanks for the suggestion. I removed the PVC Union and went hard pipe from the tank to the inlet. Can't say that there was much difference and I'm still unable to maintain 50psi as demand increases. In addition, shut off pressure still won't go past 58'ish psi. Oddly enough, I also saw little to no pressure increase as I ran the CSV stem further down.
Thanks again for your consult.

Cary Austin

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Re: Pressure not maintained with multiple faucets open
« Reply #3 on: May 26, 2017, 07:17:15 AM »
Yeah the plumbing looks good.  The stem or bolt is tightened down so far the CSV is just acting like a piece of pipe.  So the loss of pressure and flow is from a problem with the pump.  That pump should build to 69 PSI fairly easily and will pump as much as 12 GPM before the pressure should drop below 50 PSI.  Make sure the plug in the motor is set for the right voltage.  (115V or 230V)  The only other thing I see is that the check valve could have something wrong with it and is restricting flow.  But even restricted the check valve should let the 69 PSI pressure through when all the outlets are closed.

JP Wilson

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Re: Pressure not maintained with multiple faucets open
« Reply #4 on: May 31, 2017, 02:22:25 PM »
Cary, Just wanted to send an update and pick your brain a bit more. I replaced that pump with another JRS7 and all is well again. System pressure maintained at 50psi till demand is at least 10-12GPM (could easily be higher, just estimating by amount of flow).

In speaking with my pump supplier while discussing the return of the failed unit, he seemingly indicated the JRS7 might not be the best pump to work with a CSV unit. That my new pump may also fail prematurely as it would be susceptible to overheating while supplying more pressure than the demand from the CSV. I've reviewed Goulds tech info and can find no reference that would indicate this to be a concern since they list the J series pumps specifically for Single family homes, cottages, etc. If you were designing a system such as mine would you have any qualms about the JRS7 pump working in conjunction with the pside-kick? (single family dwelling, 2.5 baths, 2 fulltime household of 2). Thanks again for your assistance.

Cary Austin

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Re: Pressure not maintained with multiple faucets open
« Reply #5 on: May 31, 2017, 03:06:21 PM »
I wish those salesmen at the supply houses wouldn't act like they know what they are talking about, when they don't have a clue.  There are literally thousands of those J series Goulds pumps running on Cycle Stop Valves without any problems.  Well except for the problem that the reduced cycling from the CSV actually makes the pump last longer, which is the real reason pump supply houses don't like CSV's. 

The JRS7 can build 69 PSI, so it should not have any problems building to 60 PSI for the pressure switch shut off.  If the pump takes a long time to build to 60 or cannot build to 60, it maybe getting hot.  This only happens if the pump is weak or if you have a suction leak.  Something was wrong with the pump and the guy at the supply house is trying hard to blame it on the CSV.  If he actually knew how pumps work, he would be looking for the real problem instead of making stuff up.

You already know more than the guy at the supply house.  Just make sure the pump can easily build to 60 and shut off when no water is being used, and you will be good to go.
Thanks
Cary