Author Topic: I'd like to optimize my well water system...help needed.  (Read 3198 times)

bjm999

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I'd like to optimize my well water system...help needed.
« on: November 29, 2021, 09:54:37 PM »
I have several questions but would basically like to optimize my well water system.  I'm not happy with the current setup and I'm looking for solutions once I have a better understanding of how it could be improved.

My current setup:

We had our house built 3 years ago and the well guy put in a Goulds 25GS30 in a 4" well with a CSV2W.  I then have a 1-1/4" sch 40 PVC from the CSV to a tee for a spigot.  The CSV and spigot are about 1 foot apart.  The 1-1/4" pipe continues a foot or 2 then tees again for a 1-1/2" irrigation mainline.  The 1-1/4" pipe then continues to run to the crawl space where the pressure gauge and 50 gallon bladder tank are located for easy access.  The PVC pipe then comes out of the bladder tank and converts to PEX to supply the house fixtures with water.

I think I remember my depth to water is 160' but I texted my well guy and he seems to think it is a little less than that.  Either way I should be getting something like 25 to 28 GPM max at 60 PSI.  The pump is about 350 ft deep from what I remember.

I have a large lawn thus a large irrigation system.  I have 7 zones that require 22 to 28 GPM (may need to double check these numbers tomorrow).  I also have a large drip irrigation system that supplies water to 30 large recently transplanted trees (15 to 30 feet tall trees).  My pressure switch is currently set to cycle my pump between 45 and 70 PSI.

My problem is my pump cycles between 45 and 70 PSI every time we use water except when the 7 lawn sprinkler zones are operating.  When they are operating we do get constant pressure although the pressure differs with each zone.  ie Zone 2 may run at 50 PSI and zone 7 may run at 65 PSI, etc.  They all run at different pressures.  I would like them to run on the higher end pressure wise since each head runs optimally at 45PSI and that is difficult to get with the pressure drops I have in the irrigation system.  ie. if the well is at a constant 65PSI I can maintain roughly 45 PSI at the irrigation heads but if the well is at a constant 50 PSI it is more difficult to get 45 PSI at the irrigation heads. This has forced me to move heads to different zones or find other ways to reduce the pressure drop in the pipe, valves etc.

I would prefer the system run at say 65 PSI when the house fixtures are being used, when the drip irrigation is being used, and when all lawn zones are being used.

I'm guessing the well guy installed the wrong CSV since the CSV2W requires 5GPM.  I'm guessing that is the main problem.

Should the irrigation zones currently be operating at different constant pressures ie. Zone 2 runs at 50 PSI and Zone 7 runs at 65 PSI?  Is it ok to have the spigot tee and the irrigation mainline tee between the CSV and the bladder tank?  What changes in my system do you recommend? 

Thanks for all your help!  I'm sure I'll have more questions as you try to help with a solution.  ;D

Cary Austin

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Re: I'd like to optimize my well water system...help needed.
« Reply #1 on: November 30, 2021, 07:25:34 AM »
The CSV3A2T would have been a little better, but the CSV2W should work fine.  With a water level of 160' and a pressure needed of 60 PSI, adding the 15 PSI friction loss from the CSV2W gives 337' Total head.  At 337' the 25GS30 only producers 22 GPM.  With the p[ump set at 350' I doubt the water level will stay at 160'.  The lower the water level the less water the pump can produce. 

It sounds like the adjustment bolt on the CSV2W is tightened too far down and the valve is not working.  With the pressure switch shutting off at 70. the CSV should be set at 65 PSI while running slightly more than 5 GPM.  The drip system needs to be larger than 5 GPM or the pump will cycle on/off.  The pump will still cycle on/off while using less than 5 GPM, as when a 2.5 GPM shower is running.  But the CSV2W should keep the pump running continuously and the pressure at 65 PSI while using small amounts of water.  When using up to 30 GPM the CSV2W should still be giving you 60 PSI constant, but only if the water level in the well is not lower than 160'. 

I don't think you will be able to run any zones more than about 22 GPM, and that is only if the water level doesn't drop much.  Just have to make smaller zones and run them longer.

bjm999

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Re: I'd like to optimize my well water system...help needed.
« Reply #2 on: November 30, 2021, 08:09:36 AM »
Thanks for the detailed reply!  That was very helpful. So the well guy said I should be getting 28 to 30 GPM at 60 PSI but he is going off his memory of the water depth, etc, from 3 years ago.  He is also not the nicest guy so I think the first thing to do is to somehow determine the flow rate and go from there.  Is there an easy way to do this?  I'm guessing that would eliminate the depth to water and pump depth uncertainties.

Also, why would something like a CSV1A not work in this application?  And why would the CSV2AT possibly have been a little better choice?  Thanks for helping me understand.

The drip system has got to be more than 5 GPM but the pump still cycles...something doesn't sound right.  Probably the way the CSV adjustment bolt is set.

Thanks and if you know a good way to determine the GPM, I'll get that and we can go from there if you don't mind.




Cary Austin

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Re: I'd like to optimize my well water system...help needed.
« Reply #3 on: November 30, 2021, 09:58:04 AM »
A bucket test with the pump running wide open and no pressure against it would tell you a lot.  For instance, if the pump can produce 30 GPM (5 gallon bucket in 10 seconds) that would tell me the water level is at 220' at max flow.  Then knowing the pumping level you can figure how much a 25GS30 can pump at 60 PSI by using the pump curve.

You can see a pump curve here.
https://www.pumpproducts.com/media/amasty/amfile/attach/5GS,%207GS,%2010GS,%2013GS,%2018GS%20and%2025GS%205-25%20GPM,%20Submersible%20Pumps%20Technical%20Brochure.pdf

bjm999

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Re: I'd like to optimize my well water system...help needed.
« Reply #4 on: November 30, 2021, 03:22:49 PM »
Thanks!  I just performed the bucket test with the pressure gauge in the crawl space reading 0 psi.  It was a very tricky test to run, but I was able to perform the test several times. I filled up the bucket between 7.5 and 8 seconds. I know there's some error in the test so if we go with 8.5 seconds that gives me ~35 gpm.

With that info can you tell me my gpm at 60 psi?  Can you tell me my depth to water?

Thanks!


Cary Austin

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Re: I'd like to optimize my well water system...help needed.
« Reply #5 on: December 01, 2021, 06:48:07 AM »
At 35 GPM the curve shows that pump is only lifting from 100' or so.  If that is the case you should have plenty of pump.  With 60 PSI needed and losing 20 PSI friction loss through the CSV2W, the total head on that pump should be about 285' of head.  At that head the pump should be able to deliver 27 GPM max. 

Turn the pressure switch up to shut off at 70 PSI.  Set the CSV2W to hold 65 PSI while the drip system is running.  Then you should have 60-65 PSI while using a 27 GPM sprinkler zone.

bjm999

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Re: I'd like to optimize my well water system...help needed.
« Reply #6 on: December 01, 2021, 07:17:22 PM »
Thanks for all the information Cary!    :)

1) So that means each irrigation zone could have a max flow of 27 GPM (as long as the well pressure gauge reads 65PSI), right?

2) Once I adjust the CSV the drip irrigation and other zones should all run at ~65 PSI, right?

3) How can I get my system such that the pump will stop cycling when the house fixtures are used, ie, a shower, kitchen faucet, etc., under 5 GPM?  Maybe changing CSV's and go with a 1 gal tank?

Thanks aging!  I'm learning a lot!  ;D
« Last Edit: December 01, 2021, 08:20:15 PM by bjm999 »

Cary Austin

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Re: I'd like to optimize my well water system...help needed.
« Reply #7 on: December 02, 2021, 06:37:26 AM »
With the reduced pressure falloff from the chart, the CSV2W will give about 5 PSI less on the large irrigation zones than on the drip system.  So, 65 PSI setting on on small zones gives 60 PSI on large zones.  The CSV3A2T does not have reduced pressure fall off and would be 60 PSI for small and large zones if the 5 PSI difference is a problem?

The size of your pump determines the minimum flow. A 3HP motor needs at least 3 GPM to stay cool.  The CSV2W and CSV3A have a standard minimum of 5 GPM for 3HP and larger pumps.  We can make a special seat bypass for either valve that would get it down to the 3 GPM minimum needed to cool a 3HP motor.  But the pump will still cycle off when using less than 3 GPM, like for a 2.5 GPM shower.  With a 3HP pump needing 3 GPM to stay cool, the only way to keep the pump from cycling for a 2.5 GPM shower is to open another 3+ GPM somewhere while the shower is running.  Setting the drip system or something else to run during shower times would be optimal.

With a different pressure switch you could set it to come on at 60, off at 70, with the CSV set at 65.  In this way there would only be a 10 PSI fluctuation when using less than 5 GPM  like for a shower.  However, this also cuts the draw down of the tank in half, which requires a larger tank.  Still probably be fine with an 86 gallon tank, but not a 44.

bjm999

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Re: I'd like to optimize my well water system...help needed.
« Reply #8 on: December 02, 2021, 07:07:29 PM »
Thanks!  I'll adjust the CSV2W like you suggested and see how it goes.  I may look into changing the CSV to a CSV3A2T to avoid the pressure fall off from 65psi to 60 psi or the CSV2W with the special seat allowing it go down to 3 GPM.

Could I purchase the seat and change the seat on my valve with it in place or would it require putting in a new CSV?  Not sure I want to redo the plumbing where my CSV is.

Thanks!

Cary Austin

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Re: I'd like to optimize my well water system...help needed.
« Reply #9 on: December 03, 2021, 06:47:42 AM »
We can make you a 3 GPM seat for the CSV2W.  It goes into the valve from the bottom, and is not real easy but can talk you through it. We can also make a 3 GPM bypass for the CSV3A2T if you would like.  But I think after adjusting up a bit the CSV2W will do what you want.

bjm999

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Re: I'd like to optimize my well water system...help needed.
« Reply #10 on: December 03, 2021, 07:35:33 AM »
Awesome info.  I'm going to adjust the CSV2W today.  I'll let you know how it goes.  BTW, my pressure tank is in my crawl space about 60 ft away from the CSV2W.  Is that ok?

I saw this in you CSV installation instructions, "There should be no more than 6-10' of piping between the valve and the pressure tank."

That made me wonder if my setup was ok or not.  Thanks!

Cary Austin

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Re: I'd like to optimize my well water system...help needed.
« Reply #11 on: December 03, 2021, 08:15:33 AM »
The CSV2W can be that far away from then tank, the CSV3A2T cannot.  It is important that the pressure switch be close to the tank though.

bjm999

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Re: I'd like to optimize my well water system...help needed.
« Reply #12 on: December 03, 2021, 03:51:17 PM »
Ok since the CSV3A2T wouldn't work in my application  (CSV too far away from tank) it sounds like my well guy chose the right valve (CSV2W) so that's good to know.

So with my pressure switch set at 45/70 located at my 50 gal bladder tank in the crawl space, I adjusted the CSV2W.  I used a garden hose adjusted to 5 GPM using a calibrated bucket and timer.  I did this several times and got the garden hose running dead on 5 GPM.  Then I adjusted the CSV to 65 PSI and let it run a while at steady state.  I timed the garden hose again after adjusting the CSV and tweaked the spigot again to get the garden hose right at 5 GPM again, then barely tweaked the CSV to get it right on 65 PSI.  SO I had 5 GPM at 65 PSI.  All was good!

I then cycled through my irrigation zones.  The large tree irrigation drip zone has been winterized so I had to skip it.  My 2 shrub drip zones didn't put out quiet enough water to keep the pump running.  They were close though so I'm guessing they are around 3-4 GPM minimum each.  My 7 irrigation zones reached steady state and I noted the tank pressure gouge pressure as follows...

Zone 1 was 51 PSI
Zone 2 was 57 PSI
Zone 3 was 49 PSI
Zone 4 was 54 PSI
Zone 5 was 50 PSI
Zone 6 was 61 PSI
Zone 7 was 42 PSI

I was thinking they would have been 60PSI.  Something seems wrong.  Any ideas?  It's kinda frustrating.

Thanks for your help!

Cary Austin

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Re: I'd like to optimize my well water system...help needed.
« Reply #13 on: December 05, 2021, 06:17:39 PM »
Sorry for the delay in response.  Just tighten the adjustment bolt on the CSV2W about 3 full turns to the right.  That pushes the valve open like a piece of pipe.  You will have about 20 PSI friction loss at that point, but no other restriction.  Either your water level is deeper than we think, or there is a restriction somewhere.  A pressure gauge prior to the CSV or any/all other components would help diagnose where you are losing pressure.

bjm999

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Re: I'd like to optimize my well water system...help needed.
« Reply #14 on: December 05, 2021, 06:34:18 PM »
Ok, I'll turn the adjustment bolt 3 full turns to the right.  Is that to potentially pass an obstruction?  If so, I guess I'll try to send any possible obstruction to the bladder tank instead of the irrigation system.  I have a spigot right after the CSV so I could measure the PSI there before and after turning the bolt if that would help.  How long should I leave the bolt turned like that?

Thanks for trying to help me figure this out!