Author Topic: Amperage Drop  (Read 1038 times)

JKiz

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Amperage Drop
« on: December 29, 2022, 11:50:45 AM »
I recently bought the kit with everything that was needed preset to 45 psi and installed a new J7S pump. I was really sold on the amperage drop when using less water. I have a power meter installed and have never seen the wattage under 1200w. When it is running all out building pressure it is only running 1250, so not nearly the drop that I was hoping for. It also seems to be cycling off when running a fairly good stream of water, I haven't measured it but I'm fairly sure it is more than a gallon a minute. I also noticed that the pressure switch looks like it is turning the pump on at around 32psi and off only a few psi after it gets past the 45 psi constant pressure. I thought it was supposed be set at 35/55 for 45 constant, so am thinking the pressure switch may be set wrong.

Cary Austin

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Re: Amperage Drop
« Reply #1 on: December 30, 2022, 04:31:27 PM »
Amps don't go up, but they also do not go down with a jet pump.  Those type pumps work at max pressure all the time anyway, which is pushed through the jet to increase the pressure more than a single stage type pump can normally build.  Since they always work at max pressure, they are always at their lowest amps possible.  Unless you are dong a lot of irrigation, a few hundred watts won't make much difference in the electric bill for just house water using 100-300 gallons per day max.

But if you need the amps to decrease for efficiency purposes, you just have to choose the right pump.  Pumps can be chosen by how low the amps drop instead of just max flow and pressure or just at the lowest cost.  Most straight centrifugal pumps will decrease in amps.  Some more than others.  Goulds centrifugal pumps like the 3656 will drop by 50%-60% in amps.  Their submersibles and multi=stage centrifugal pumps will drop about 30%.  Grundfos makes pumps that drop lower in amperage when restricted than most other brands. This is ironic in that they push VFD's as a way to make the amps drop, when their pumps do that naturally with just restriction of flow.

JKiz

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Re: Amperage Drop
« Reply #2 on: January 13, 2023, 01:53:16 PM »
A few hundred watts does matter when you sell these saying they will save energy. They do not, they run up the energy bill. Kept mine on for a couple weeks and was averaging almost 2 KWH a day with it on. Took it off and installed a 44 gallon pressure tank and my daily power consumption dropped to around .5KWH a day. So, $2/month with a pressure tank and $8/month with your valve installed.

You recommend the J7S pump up and down this forum, and say go with the bigger pump and the cycle stop valve will make it act like a smaller pump when needed. Again it does not, the wattage barly budges when the pump is being restricted. I do like the pump and think it was a great suggestion, but I would not recommend using the cycle stop valve, they do not work as advertised.

Cary Austin

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Re: Amperage Drop
« Reply #3 on: January 13, 2023, 06:43:21 PM »
Sorry you are unhappy.  Send the CSV back for a full refund.  But I think you are mistaken about me claiming energy savings.  I have plenty of articles, videos, and such to show how much energy is used and by what pump.  I also make it very clear that it is the brand and type of pump that determines how much the amperage drops.  I also state many places that even with a pump that has a large amp drop, it still cost more per gallon to pump at lower flow rates.  I also state that just for house use, a CSV can make the electric bill go up a couple bucks a month.  Yours going up 6 bucks a month is unusual, but with a jet pump that doesn't have much or any drop in amps it is possible as a worst case scenario.  It also depends on where you live and if you are paying 10 cents or 40 cents a Kw. 

Even at 6 bucks a month extra energy use, there can be advantages to the CSV. it takes several years at 6 bucks a month just to pay off the larger pressure tank.  The strong constant pressure in the shower is worth quite a bit to some people.  Then the CSV will make the pump, tank, pressure switch, and everything else in a pump system last longer, which can also be quantified.

But I understand, six bucks a month is six bucks a month.  Send the CSV back for a refund.  At least that will offset some of the cost of the larger tank and shorter lived pump system.

JKiz

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Re: Amperage Drop
« Reply #4 on: January 14, 2023, 06:03:02 AM »
How much do you think larger pressure tanks cost? I picked up a 44 gallon one off the shelf at Home Depot for $360. The 20 gallon tank, which is what is typically recommended go for $200. Your valve costs $224 and the kit that I bought cost nearly $500. So way more up front than buying a larger pressure tank.

As far as the strong constant pressure goes... The only time I really care about the strong constant pressure is when I am taking a shower and my shower doesn't draw enough water to keep the pump from cycling, so bouncing between the set points the whole time like a conventional tank and pump system, but it is actually cycling more often since the tank was so small. I did a test to measure the flow rate with the pump cycling and it was well above the 1 gallon a minute that you claim. With the pump cycling I easily filled a 1 gallon bucket in less than 40 seconds, so your cycling flow rate is at least 1.5 gallons per minute but probably higher because I didn't have time to really tune the test in.

What I ended up doing to maintain the strong constant pressure with my 44 gallon tank is set my pressure switch to come on at 38psi and turn off at 50psi. Then I set my big tank to 42 psi and used your small tank that came with the kit and set it to 36psi. The system will maintain the 40 plus psi right up to the point where the pump cycles and will also use the entire volume of the 44 gallon tank while the small tank will keep pressure on the pump untill it cycles preventing it from hammering and letting it start smoothly. I assume this would work for higher pressures as well, but I have old copper under my slab house, so don't want to exceed 50 psi shut off pressure.

As far as wear and tear on the pump, the traditional tank and pump system can last 20 years. That seems plenty good to me.

The only reason that I purchased this system is because I convinced myself that I would be saving money by watching many of your videos and reading though your statements in this forum. In the end, this valve is a money pit, it will cost you more up front and then the power needed to operate will increase. Like I said my power consumption was 4 times higher with the valve installed and I saw none of the benefits that you claim throughout this forum and in all of your videos.

Cary Austin

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Re: Amperage Drop
« Reply #5 on: January 14, 2023, 10:45:31 AM »
If you had spent half as much time trying to understand how it works as you did making a video trying to show that it doesn't, you would see it does everything it is advertised to do.  If you bought a CSV to save energy, you bought for the wrong reason.  You are using it with the wrong kind of pump to get any amp drop as some will drop by 60%.  But even a pump that drops 60% in amperage is not saving any energy, it is just using less energy than a jet pump will. But you also did not show the wattage when the pump is opened up to 15-20 GPM, as even jet pumps show a little decrease in watts or amps from full flow to minimum flow.  Any straight centrifugal, multi-stage centrifugal, or centrifugal style submersibles will have a much better decrease in amps with a decrease in flow. 

The CSV was not designed to save energy on pump systems, as there is nothing that can do that.  There is no way to pump water more efficiently than normal pumps working at there  best efficiency point.  No device, not even a VFD can save energy when pumping water.  The CSV was designed to make your pump and everything in the pump system last longer, while delivering strong constant pressure to the house.  It is delivering strong constant 45 PSI to the house, and will do so down to as little as 1/2 a GPM if you turn the shut off on the pressure switch up  a little bit as was described above.  If you cannot see how smoothly your CSV pump system is working in that video, do not see the CSV will make the pump last longer, and do not understand the other advantages the CSV is giving you, then we certainly do not want you to have one.  Again, as was said, send it back for a full refund.  You will be the third person in 30 years who was unable to see the benefits of a CSV and returned it for a refund.  Don't throw it in the trash.  There are a million other people who can use it and will appreciate it.  Plus you will need the money from the refund to pay for part of a large pressure tank and replace your pump in the future, as it will not last as long without the CSV.

JKiz

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Re: Amperage Drop
« Reply #6 on: January 15, 2023, 06:07:21 AM »
Send me a prepaid return shipping label and I will send you your junk valve back. I'm using most of the other components so just refund the $224 that you charge for those and we will call it even.

Cary Austin

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Re: Amperage Drop
« Reply #7 on: January 15, 2023, 02:00:16 PM »
Consider it done.  I would be glad to do that.  In the future when you encounter one of the many problems caused by the pump cycling on and off, we will be glad to send you another.

Oh and BTW, not getting much draw down from that 44 gallon tank with 42 PSI air and the pump shutting off at 50 PSI.  Just FYI.


Now after we agreed you are sending the CSV back for a full refund, you should do another video showing your pump is short cycling and running less than 30 seconds with the tank set up you have now.  You may not realize how bad that is but others will benefit from it.  Thanks.
« Last Edit: January 16, 2023, 07:08:57 AM by Cary Austin »