Author Topic: Can I install this after a hose outlet?  (Read 2190 times)

Tylerr

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Can I install this after a hose outlet?
« on: July 14, 2023, 07:25:27 PM »
Can the CSV be installed after the tee to an outdoor hose bib?  Does water flow backwards thru the CSV from the pressure tank?
Thanks.

Cary Austin

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Re: Can I install this after a hose outlet?
« Reply #1 on: July 16, 2023, 03:16:08 PM »
Yes and no. The water will flow backwards through the CSV1A no problem, but it cannot prevent the pump from cycling on taps before the CSV.  So if you use the tap for something small like filling a dog water bowl ii is OK.  You can also use that tap for irrigation as long as the amount used maxes out the flow from the pump so the pump cannot cycle off.  Otherwise it is best to out the CSV at or in the well so it is before any taps.

Tylerr

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Re: Can I install this after a hose outlet?
« Reply #2 on: July 22, 2023, 07:36:35 AM »
Thank you for the info.  That is what I was hoping.  I may install it at the well head anyway for simplicity.  But my pressure switch is set to 60/80 psi, and the hose and pump balance out at 65 psi (so no cycling when irrigating).  Just hoping to achieve a constant 78 psi at the showers. 
Thanks again.

Cary Austin

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Re: Can I install this after a hose outlet?
« Reply #3 on: July 22, 2023, 12:10:40 PM »
You can certainly do that.  Placing the CSV1A at the pressure tank will let you set it for 78 when using a shower, and the irrigation teed in prior to the CSV will still work as normal at 65 PSI.  You actually want the CSV set at 78 when using a large tank and a 60/80 switch.  However, when the irrigation is not running, the back pressure from the CSV will be on the lines prior to the CSV, including the irrigation lines to the solenoid valves.  The back pressure will be as much, but also no more than your pump can produce.  You may want to figure the backpressure of your pump because of this.  Horsepower, GPM series, and depth to water is all you need to figure back pressure.  I can help if you feed me the numbers, or I can help you figure out those numbers.

In your second scenario of placing the CSV at the well, here is what happens.  Since you have already matched all your irrigation zones to the output of the pump at 65 PSI, installing the CSV1A prior to the tee to the irrigation will cause a 10 PSI loss at 20 GPM flow.  When everyone of someone's irrigation zones are small and cause the pump to cycle on and off, the friction loss of the CSV1A is a moot point.  They will never see a loss of pressure.  But if one of there zones is already maxing out the pump the way yours does, they see a 5-10 PSI loss on that zone.

A third option is to install the CSV125 or CSVS125 in the well or at the well head.  These valves have so little friction loss that zones matched to the pump will only see a pound or two loss.  However, they are not adjustable and the highest pressure unit we make is 60 PSI.  Therefore all your zones and your shower would be at 60 PSI.

Sorry to confuse you.  Just wanted you to know the options.

Tylerr

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Re: Can I install this after a hose outlet?
« Reply #4 on: July 23, 2023, 01:09:31 PM »
Thank you for the detailed response.  Not confusing.  It was well said.  I am unsure of the well pump size.  It’s 250’ deep.  I may do a before and after video, showing the differences in performance.  I will post it here if I do.  As for irrigation, it’s simply a large hose to a sprinkler.
I really like having the higher pressure in my house, for showers, filling tubs, and even at the kitchen sink.  We have 3/4” pex, and anything less than 50-55 psi, just feels weak.

Cary Austin

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Re: Can I install this after a hose outlet?
« Reply #5 on: July 24, 2023, 08:48:36 AM »
Yeah those inserts in 3/4 pex make it work more like 1/2" pipe.  More pressure will squirt more water through the small lines.  78 PSI constant will make a lot of difference.  It is your water system.  No sense in putting up with "weak" pressure.  You can have as much pressure as you want, you just have to make it happen.  Adding the CSV1A and setting it at 78 should be all you need to do to have such good shower pressure that you don't even need soap anymore.  Lol!

Tylerr

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Re: Can I install this after a hose outlet?
« Reply #6 on: July 24, 2023, 01:11:16 PM »
Haha. Good to hear.  This is our custom home, and I am still mad that the plumber installed 3/4” pex.  Wish I had known then.  But if higher pressure will solve the problems, then so be it.

Tylerr

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Re: Can I install this after a hose outlet?
« Reply #7 on: August 09, 2023, 05:20:37 PM »
Did a before and after video:   https://youtu.be/IX5NNtVEyf0

I am very happy with the results.  We finally have hot water at all showers, and good water pressure everywhere. 

Cary Austin

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Re: Can I install this after a hose outlet?
« Reply #8 on: August 10, 2023, 08:08:01 AM »
Glad you are happy.  Thanks for the video.  Very informative.  I have a few comments or suggestions.  The amp drop is determined by the type/brand pump you have.  I saw your drop from 9.3 to 7,7 amps, which is about 20%.  You must have a Pentair or Franklin pump as they are the ones with floating stage type pumps that don't drop much in amperage.  A floating stack design like a Goulds would drop 30% or more, and a Grundfos would drop by 50% or more.  If you use low flow for long periods of time it would pay to pick a pump with a better drop in amps.  However, a 20% drop with a floating stage design pump is pretty good.  Running cooler from the drop in amps and with cycling eliminated, that pump may last a lifetime.  But if it ever needs replacing, consider a Grundfos or similar design that would have a better amp drop.

Having said that, about half way through your video I saw the Littlefuse pump protector.  Most of those type devices look for a 25% drop in amps and shut the pump off thinking the well is dry.  In the video the Littlefuse device did shut the pump down on dry well condition.  That means the amps dropped by 25% not just 20%.  That is not going to be acceptable with the Cycle Stop Valve.  Anytime the CSV reduces the amp draw by 25% the Littlefuse device will shut the pump down thinking the well is dry.  If you had a pump with a good amp drop you would most certainly need to remove the Littlefuse protector.  Even with the much less amp drop of the floating stage design pump you have, I think the 25% drop in amps is going to be a problem for you. 

Since most dry well protectors on the market look for a 25% drop in amps and amps usually drop more than 25% when using a Cycle Stop Valve, we made a device called the Cycle Sensor that can be set for as low of an amp draw as needed.  You can see it here. https://cyclestopvalves.com/pages/cycle-sensor-pump-monitor

The flow to your wide open hose test was restricte4d by the 4 way splitter.  The frost free hydrant will let out a lot of water and the pressure will get even lower.  But the ball valves in the splitter will only let so much water through.

You also have the CSV set for about 78-79 PSI, which is why the pump shuts off so soon after closing the taps.  A 60 gallon tank is a pretty large size to use with the CSV.  But your test does show that you can set the CSV to get any run time you want even with a large tank.  However, I would turn the CSV down a little or the pressure switch up a bit to get at least a minute of fill time after all taps are closed.  It is just hard to see where the CSV is set with such a large tank.  As you can see the pressure slowly creeps up as the large tank is filling.  You just have to take time and wait for it to settle to know where the CSV is set.  You can actually tell when the CSV starts working as that is when the amps drop below 8.  The amps should run below 8 for a minute while the tank is filled.  But again, I am afraid that will cause the Little fuse device to shut the pump down thinking the well is dry.  I am sure it waits for a certain length of time after the amps drop by 25%.  So, when it takes a minute to fill the tank the Littlefuse device will be a problem.

Tylerr

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Re: Can I install this after a hose outlet?
« Reply #9 on: August 18, 2023, 12:18:54 PM »
Thank you for the thorough response.  Very good info for me to use.  I suspected what you mentioned about the Littlefuse, and turned the sensitivity almost all the way down on it.  I will turn the CSV down slightly also.  Thank you again!

Cary Austin

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Re: Can I install this after a hose outlet?
« Reply #10 on: August 19, 2023, 10:42:10 AM »
Adjust the CSV down a bit first.  That way it will take longer to fill the pressure tank and you can recalibrate the Littlefuse thing while the tank is filling.  It will be running at the lowest amps while filling the tank and hopefully the Littlefuse will adjust low enough to work.  If not, we made the Cycle Sensor to be infinitely adjustable for this reason.  Some pumps will drop a lot more in amps and the Littlefuse and other similar devices that are set at 25% amp drop just will not work.