Cycle Stop Valves

Pump System Questions and Answers => Pumps, Wells, Tanks, Controls => Topic started by: bjm999 on November 29, 2021, 09:54:37 PM

Title: I'd like to optimize my well water system...help needed.
Post by: bjm999 on November 29, 2021, 09:54:37 PM
I have several questions but would basically like to optimize my well water system.  I'm not happy with the current setup and I'm looking for solutions once I have a better understanding of how it could be improved.

My current setup:

We had our house built 3 years ago and the well guy put in a Goulds 25GS30 in a 4" well with a CSV2W.  I then have a 1-1/4" sch 40 PVC from the CSV to a tee for a spigot.  The CSV and spigot are about 1 foot apart.  The 1-1/4" pipe continues a foot or 2 then tees again for a 1-1/2" irrigation mainline.  The 1-1/4" pipe then continues to run to the crawl space where the pressure gauge and 50 gallon bladder tank are located for easy access.  The PVC pipe then comes out of the bladder tank and converts to PEX to supply the house fixtures with water.

I think I remember my depth to water is 160' but I texted my well guy and he seems to think it is a little less than that.  Either way I should be getting something like 25 to 28 GPM max at 60 PSI.  The pump is about 350 ft deep from what I remember.

I have a large lawn thus a large irrigation system.  I have 7 zones that require 22 to 28 GPM (may need to double check these numbers tomorrow).  I also have a large drip irrigation system that supplies water to 30 large recently transplanted trees (15 to 30 feet tall trees).  My pressure switch is currently set to cycle my pump between 45 and 70 PSI.

My problem is my pump cycles between 45 and 70 PSI every time we use water except when the 7 lawn sprinkler zones are operating.  When they are operating we do get constant pressure although the pressure differs with each zone.  ie Zone 2 may run at 50 PSI and zone 7 may run at 65 PSI, etc.  They all run at different pressures.  I would like them to run on the higher end pressure wise since each head runs optimally at 45PSI and that is difficult to get with the pressure drops I have in the irrigation system.  ie. if the well is at a constant 65PSI I can maintain roughly 45 PSI at the irrigation heads but if the well is at a constant 50 PSI it is more difficult to get 45 PSI at the irrigation heads. This has forced me to move heads to different zones or find other ways to reduce the pressure drop in the pipe, valves etc.

I would prefer the system run at say 65 PSI when the house fixtures are being used, when the drip irrigation is being used, and when all lawn zones are being used.

I'm guessing the well guy installed the wrong CSV since the CSV2W requires 5GPM.  I'm guessing that is the main problem.

Should the irrigation zones currently be operating at different constant pressures ie. Zone 2 runs at 50 PSI and Zone 7 runs at 65 PSI?  Is it ok to have the spigot tee and the irrigation mainline tee between the CSV and the bladder tank?  What changes in my system do you recommend? 

Thanks for all your help!  I'm sure I'll have more questions as you try to help with a solution.  ;D
Title: Re: I'd like to optimize my well water system...help needed.
Post by: Cary Austin on November 30, 2021, 07:25:34 AM
The CSV3A2T would have been a little better, but the CSV2W should work fine.  With a water level of 160' and a pressure needed of 60 PSI, adding the 15 PSI friction loss from the CSV2W gives 337' Total head.  At 337' the 25GS30 only producers 22 GPM.  With the p[ump set at 350' I doubt the water level will stay at 160'.  The lower the water level the less water the pump can produce. 

It sounds like the adjustment bolt on the CSV2W is tightened too far down and the valve is not working.  With the pressure switch shutting off at 70. the CSV should be set at 65 PSI while running slightly more than 5 GPM.  The drip system needs to be larger than 5 GPM or the pump will cycle on/off.  The pump will still cycle on/off while using less than 5 GPM, as when a 2.5 GPM shower is running.  But the CSV2W should keep the pump running continuously and the pressure at 65 PSI while using small amounts of water.  When using up to 30 GPM the CSV2W should still be giving you 60 PSI constant, but only if the water level in the well is not lower than 160'. 

I don't think you will be able to run any zones more than about 22 GPM, and that is only if the water level doesn't drop much.  Just have to make smaller zones and run them longer.
Title: Re: I'd like to optimize my well water system...help needed.
Post by: bjm999 on November 30, 2021, 08:09:36 AM
Thanks for the detailed reply!  That was very helpful. So the well guy said I should be getting 28 to 30 GPM at 60 PSI but he is going off his memory of the water depth, etc, from 3 years ago.  He is also not the nicest guy so I think the first thing to do is to somehow determine the flow rate and go from there.  Is there an easy way to do this?  I'm guessing that would eliminate the depth to water and pump depth uncertainties.

Also, why would something like a CSV1A not work in this application?  And why would the CSV2AT possibly have been a little better choice?  Thanks for helping me understand.

The drip system has got to be more than 5 GPM but the pump still cycles...something doesn't sound right.  Probably the way the CSV adjustment bolt is set.

Thanks and if you know a good way to determine the GPM, I'll get that and we can go from there if you don't mind.



Title: Re: I'd like to optimize my well water system...help needed.
Post by: Cary Austin on November 30, 2021, 09:58:04 AM
A bucket test with the pump running wide open and no pressure against it would tell you a lot.  For instance, if the pump can produce 30 GPM (5 gallon bucket in 10 seconds) that would tell me the water level is at 220' at max flow.  Then knowing the pumping level you can figure how much a 25GS30 can pump at 60 PSI by using the pump curve.

You can see a pump curve here.
https://www.pumpproducts.com/media/amasty/amfile/attach/5GS,%207GS,%2010GS,%2013GS,%2018GS%20and%2025GS%205-25%20GPM,%20Submersible%20Pumps%20Technical%20Brochure.pdf
Title: Re: I'd like to optimize my well water system...help needed.
Post by: bjm999 on November 30, 2021, 03:22:49 PM
Thanks!  I just performed the bucket test with the pressure gauge in the crawl space reading 0 psi.  It was a very tricky test to run, but I was able to perform the test several times. I filled up the bucket between 7.5 and 8 seconds. I know there's some error in the test so if we go with 8.5 seconds that gives me ~35 gpm.

With that info can you tell me my gpm at 60 psi?  Can you tell me my depth to water?

Thanks!

Title: Re: I'd like to optimize my well water system...help needed.
Post by: Cary Austin on December 01, 2021, 06:48:07 AM
At 35 GPM the curve shows that pump is only lifting from 100' or so.  If that is the case you should have plenty of pump.  With 60 PSI needed and losing 20 PSI friction loss through the CSV2W, the total head on that pump should be about 285' of head.  At that head the pump should be able to deliver 27 GPM max. 

Turn the pressure switch up to shut off at 70 PSI.  Set the CSV2W to hold 65 PSI while the drip system is running.  Then you should have 60-65 PSI while using a 27 GPM sprinkler zone.
Title: Re: I'd like to optimize my well water system...help needed.
Post by: bjm999 on December 01, 2021, 07:17:22 PM
Thanks for all the information Cary!    :)

1) So that means each irrigation zone could have a max flow of 27 GPM (as long as the well pressure gauge reads 65PSI), right?

2) Once I adjust the CSV the drip irrigation and other zones should all run at ~65 PSI, right?

3) How can I get my system such that the pump will stop cycling when the house fixtures are used, ie, a shower, kitchen faucet, etc., under 5 GPM?  Maybe changing CSV's and go with a 1 gal tank?

Thanks aging!  I'm learning a lot!  ;D
Title: Re: I'd like to optimize my well water system...help needed.
Post by: Cary Austin on December 02, 2021, 06:37:26 AM
With the reduced pressure falloff from the chart, the CSV2W will give about 5 PSI less on the large irrigation zones than on the drip system.  So, 65 PSI setting on on small zones gives 60 PSI on large zones.  The CSV3A2T does not have reduced pressure fall off and would be 60 PSI for small and large zones if the 5 PSI difference is a problem?

The size of your pump determines the minimum flow. A 3HP motor needs at least 3 GPM to stay cool.  The CSV2W and CSV3A have a standard minimum of 5 GPM for 3HP and larger pumps.  We can make a special seat bypass for either valve that would get it down to the 3 GPM minimum needed to cool a 3HP motor.  But the pump will still cycle off when using less than 3 GPM, like for a 2.5 GPM shower.  With a 3HP pump needing 3 GPM to stay cool, the only way to keep the pump from cycling for a 2.5 GPM shower is to open another 3+ GPM somewhere while the shower is running.  Setting the drip system or something else to run during shower times would be optimal.

With a different pressure switch you could set it to come on at 60, off at 70, with the CSV set at 65.  In this way there would only be a 10 PSI fluctuation when using less than 5 GPM  like for a shower.  However, this also cuts the draw down of the tank in half, which requires a larger tank.  Still probably be fine with an 86 gallon tank, but not a 44.
Title: Re: I'd like to optimize my well water system...help needed.
Post by: bjm999 on December 02, 2021, 07:07:29 PM
Thanks!  I'll adjust the CSV2W like you suggested and see how it goes.  I may look into changing the CSV to a CSV3A2T to avoid the pressure fall off from 65psi to 60 psi or the CSV2W with the special seat allowing it go down to 3 GPM.

Could I purchase the seat and change the seat on my valve with it in place or would it require putting in a new CSV?  Not sure I want to redo the plumbing where my CSV is.

Thanks!
Title: Re: I'd like to optimize my well water system...help needed.
Post by: Cary Austin on December 03, 2021, 06:47:42 AM
We can make you a 3 GPM seat for the CSV2W.  It goes into the valve from the bottom, and is not real easy but can talk you through it. We can also make a 3 GPM bypass for the CSV3A2T if you would like.  But I think after adjusting up a bit the CSV2W will do what you want.
Title: Re: I'd like to optimize my well water system...help needed.
Post by: bjm999 on December 03, 2021, 07:35:33 AM
Awesome info.  I'm going to adjust the CSV2W today.  I'll let you know how it goes.  BTW, my pressure tank is in my crawl space about 60 ft away from the CSV2W.  Is that ok?

I saw this in you CSV installation instructions, "There should be no more than 6-10' of piping between the valve and the pressure tank."

That made me wonder if my setup was ok or not.  Thanks!
Title: Re: I'd like to optimize my well water system...help needed.
Post by: Cary Austin on December 03, 2021, 08:15:33 AM
The CSV2W can be that far away from then tank, the CSV3A2T cannot.  It is important that the pressure switch be close to the tank though.
Title: Re: I'd like to optimize my well water system...help needed.
Post by: bjm999 on December 03, 2021, 03:51:17 PM
Ok since the CSV3A2T wouldn't work in my application  (CSV too far away from tank) it sounds like my well guy chose the right valve (CSV2W) so that's good to know.

So with my pressure switch set at 45/70 located at my 50 gal bladder tank in the crawl space, I adjusted the CSV2W.  I used a garden hose adjusted to 5 GPM using a calibrated bucket and timer.  I did this several times and got the garden hose running dead on 5 GPM.  Then I adjusted the CSV to 65 PSI and let it run a while at steady state.  I timed the garden hose again after adjusting the CSV and tweaked the spigot again to get the garden hose right at 5 GPM again, then barely tweaked the CSV to get it right on 65 PSI.  SO I had 5 GPM at 65 PSI.  All was good!

I then cycled through my irrigation zones.  The large tree irrigation drip zone has been winterized so I had to skip it.  My 2 shrub drip zones didn't put out quiet enough water to keep the pump running.  They were close though so I'm guessing they are around 3-4 GPM minimum each.  My 7 irrigation zones reached steady state and I noted the tank pressure gouge pressure as follows...

Zone 1 was 51 PSI
Zone 2 was 57 PSI
Zone 3 was 49 PSI
Zone 4 was 54 PSI
Zone 5 was 50 PSI
Zone 6 was 61 PSI
Zone 7 was 42 PSI

I was thinking they would have been 60PSI.  Something seems wrong.  Any ideas?  It's kinda frustrating.

Thanks for your help!
Title: Re: I'd like to optimize my well water system...help needed.
Post by: Cary Austin on December 05, 2021, 06:17:39 PM
Sorry for the delay in response.  Just tighten the adjustment bolt on the CSV2W about 3 full turns to the right.  That pushes the valve open like a piece of pipe.  You will have about 20 PSI friction loss at that point, but no other restriction.  Either your water level is deeper than we think, or there is a restriction somewhere.  A pressure gauge prior to the CSV or any/all other components would help diagnose where you are losing pressure.
Title: Re: I'd like to optimize my well water system...help needed.
Post by: bjm999 on December 05, 2021, 06:34:18 PM
Ok, I'll turn the adjustment bolt 3 full turns to the right.  Is that to potentially pass an obstruction?  If so, I guess I'll try to send any possible obstruction to the bladder tank instead of the irrigation system.  I have a spigot right after the CSV so I could measure the PSI there before and after turning the bolt if that would help.  How long should I leave the bolt turned like that?

Thanks for trying to help me figure this out!
Title: Re: I'd like to optimize my well water system...help needed.
Post by: Cary Austin on December 05, 2021, 08:21:40 PM
It's just for a test.  A pressure gage after the CSV would be OK. But a gage anywhere before the CSV would tell us more.
Title: Re: I'd like to optimize my well water system...help needed.
Post by: bjm999 on December 05, 2021, 08:49:41 PM
Sorry I may be missing something but I'm still not sure what I'm testing.  Turn it 3 times then what?  Let you know what the pressure is at the tank while the irrigation zones are running then turn the bolt back to the current position? 

BTW, there is a tee before the CSV with a plug in it.  It would be possible to attach a pressure gage there I suppose but I'd be nervous messing with the plumbing.  Just kinda scared of creating a leak.

(https://i.postimg.cc/x85wc5Ps/PXL-20211118-223814081.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/ctK9zQ2Y)
Title: Re: I'd like to optimize my well water system...help needed.
Post by: Cary Austin on December 05, 2021, 09:00:26 PM
Sorry I may be missing something but I'm still not sure what I'm testing.  Turn it 3 times then what?  Let you know what the pressure is at the tank while the irrigation zones are running then turn the bolt back to the current position? 

BTW, there is a tee before the CSV with a plug in it.  It would be possible to attach a pressure gage there I suppose but I'd be nervous messing with the plumbing.  Just kinda scared of creating a leak.

(https://i.postimg.cc/x85wc5Ps/PXL-20211118-223814081.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/ctK9zQ2Y)
Yes put a gage there.
Title: Re: I'd like to optimize my well water system...help needed.
Post by: Cary Austin on December 06, 2021, 07:16:24 AM
Get a 1 1/4" X 1/4" bushing and put a gauge on the tee.  After tightening the CSV bolt about three full turns to the right there should only be about 20 PSI difference in that gauge and the the one on the tank.  If there is high pressure at that tee, move the gauge to the faucet after the CSV.  It there is high pressure after the CSV, something is restricting the flow.
Title: Re: I'd like to optimize my well water system...help needed.
Post by: bjm999 on December 08, 2021, 02:55:52 PM
Sorry it took me a couple days to perform the test.

(https://i.postimg.cc/JnqkYgRr/PXL-20211208-174153002.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/bDZrsmGW)

I turned the adjustment bolt 3 full turns to the right (clockwise) and replaced the plug at the tee with bushings and a pressure gauge.  I also put a gauge at the spigot just down from the CSV.  The tank is under my crawl space and also had a gauge but it's not shown in the pic.

I then ran my irrigation (Zone 5) for 10 minutes to make sure everything reached steady state.

The pressure at the tee (before the CSV) was about 71 PSI.  The pressure at the spigot was about 55 PSI, and the pressure at the tank was about 57 PSI.  What does this info lead you to think the problem is?

I then returned everything back to the way it was before the test.  I noticed before the test the switch would turn off the pump at a tank pressure of 70 PSI even.  It would stay dead on 70 PSI until water was being used.  Now (after the test) the switch turns the pump off at about 68 then slowly the pressure reading goes down to about 64 PSI with no leaks and no water usage.  Any idea why it does this?

Thanks again for your help!
Title: Re: I'd like to optimize my well water system...help needed.
Post by: Cary Austin on December 09, 2021, 07:07:33 AM
Very good information.  With only 17 PSI loss across the CSV2W, that tells me the zone is about 25 GPM.  If the pumping level is 160' then that pump is doing all it can with 320' total head.  With zones that large, the pump is not cycling on/off even with the CSV disabled.  So, when you add a CSV2W to a zone that is already maxing out the pump, you will lose about 17 PSI.  That CSV2W is designed to reduce the flow/pressure from a pump that is too large for the zones and is doing exactly what it is supposed to do.

Switching to the CSV3A2T would give you back 10 PSI, as that valve would only have 7 PSI loss at 25-30 GPM.  But the zones larger than Zone 5 might still not get up to 60 PSI.

If you have good clean water, the CSV12560-3 will probably do just as good as the CSV3A2T and is much less expensive.  I would be willing to send you a CSV12560-3 for free if you want to try it?  They have much better flow characteristics than the CSV2W but are not as robust, won't last as long, especially if there is any debris in the water.

Reducing the size of the zones to about 20 GPM max would let the CSV2W get it to 60 PSI, as long as the water level stays above 160'.

You are just right at the edge of what that pump can do, and any added friction loss causes a loss of pressure for the big zones.
Title: Re: I'd like to optimize my well water system...help needed.
Post by: bjm999 on December 09, 2021, 08:30:16 AM
Great information!

My tank is about 60 feet away from my CSV.  Would the CSV3A2T be ok that far away?  What about the CSV12560-3?

I'm about to add some sod near zone 7 so that zone could be split when I add zone 8 for the new sod.  Zone 8 was going to be small anyway so adding a couple heads wouldn't hurt and would greatly help my worse zone (zone 7).

I've been thinking I need to add a double check back flow preventer to my irrigation, which will seriously lower the irrigation pressure.  With that in mind it's hard to decide a path forward.

Would it make since to run my irrigation mainline to the tee before the CSV?  If so adding the backflow preventer may equal out the pressure loss the CSV had.

Maybe a bigger pump is the best long term answer.

Maybe adjusting my switch to turn the pump off at a higher pressure would help.

Sorry just brainstorming.  Money isn't too big of a hurdle but I don't think I could put a 2nd well in and changing pumps could sting a little but I would do it if necessary.  Btw, I'd love to have constant pressure down at 3gpm too but that may be asking to much.

With that info what do you think the best solution is?  Maybe a combo of some of the ideas above?

I really appreciate your help!
Title: Re: I'd like to optimize my well water system...help needed.
Post by: Cary Austin on December 09, 2021, 10:16:22 AM
If your game, let's try a CSV12560-3.  That valve can be 60' or more from the pressure tank/pressure switch.  It will only have maybe 5 PSI loss at 25 GPM, and should maintain 60 PSI from 3 GPM to 25 GPM.  But that also depends on the actual pumping level in the well.  It is an inexpensive thing to try, and will make a ton of difference from the CSV2W.

One option is to spilt the zones up into smaller zones and run the pump longer to get across.  This is a good option unless you are already running 24/7?  The same goes for people who have low producing wells.  I have a 3 GPM well that I irrigate with quite a bit.  I just have to run 24/7 switching from one zone to the next.

If there is a need to have more water, a larger pump is your only option.  Teeing off the irrigation before the CSV will decrease the loss from the CSV2W by 17 PSI.  But adding in the back flow preventer will put that friction loss right back.  Using the large size zones through the CSV2W WITH a back flow preventer will require a larger pump.

I think you will be surprised how much better the pressure will be through the CSV12560-3.  With this valve 60 PSI is the limit and it is not adjustable, but it will stay 60 PSI through a wide range of flow.  Call Corye at the office and tell her I said to send you a CSV12560-3.  If you are willing to install it, I am willing to supply it, and we can give it a try before going to a more expensive alternative.

I love how you have documented everything, which will be a great way for people to see the difference in performance of the CSV2W and the CSV125.  Many people think the heavy brass CSV2W valve is better than the plastic CSV125 valve.  For longevity and handling debris it is, but for performance it is not.  I use the CSV125 myself, because it has the better flow characteristics than any valve I have, including the CSV3A2T.
Title: Re: I'd like to optimize my well water system...help needed.
Post by: bjm999 on December 09, 2021, 01:31:17 PM
I'm guessing some zones are currently putting out a little more than 25 gpm.  The CSV12560-3 is rated up to 50gpm so I wouldn't think that would be a problem.

Converting the zones to more zones with lower flow wouldn't be an option except for zone 7 which is my highest flow zone... Kinda got lucky on that.

The CSV12560-3 would help keep my pump from cycling when I'm using water inside the house too ie. 3gpm compared to 5gpm for the CSV2W.

The only tricky part is installation.  I may not have room to install it without a lot of rework.

If like to try it but let me take a few measurements first.

Thanks!
Title: Re: I'd like to optimize my well water system...help needed.
Post by: Cary Austin on December 09, 2021, 02:01:20 PM
If wiring more zones is the problem, sometimes you can just put smaller nozzles in the sprinklers and run them a little longer.

Yeah I think the CSV125 will do both lower and higher flows for you.  If you use a 1 1/4" PVC sch 80 threaded close nipple in the inlet of the CSV125 and a 1 1/4" male adapter in the outlet, I think there will be enough room not to need a triple elbow to get back to the line going down. The CSV125 can also be installed in the well, but that requires pulling the pump up a few feet.
Title: Re: I'd like to optimize my well water system...help needed.
Post by: bjm999 on December 09, 2021, 02:17:02 PM
Great point on the close nipple!  That will likely give me enough room to make the plumbing easy.  I'm just not sure how much debris I have in the water.  What would be a sign that I have to much debris for the CSV125?  Hopefully a CSV125 would last a long time.  Changing them out frequently wouldn't be much fun.  It may help to put a union right after the CSV.

I'm willing to try it.  I'll call Corye.

Thanks for everything!
Title: Re: I'd like to optimize my well water system...help needed.
Post by: Cary Austin on December 09, 2021, 02:30:07 PM
Debris in the water causes the CSV125 to leak from the air vents under the red coupling.  Lots of them have lasted 20+ years and still working when used with fairly clean water.  If it last 2-3 years it is still an economical way to do it.  But if it won't last a year there is too much stuff in the water for that valve.  Might have room below the tee to install a union, which would make replacement fairly easy.
Title: Re: I'd like to optimize my well water system...help needed.
Post by: bjm999 on December 24, 2021, 04:09:23 PM
Ok I'm starting to gather everything I need to change the CSV.  I'm trying to make it easy to change in the future in case I need to replace the CSV12560-3 every few years.  I'll put a union below the tee like we discussed but not sure what to do about the nipple between the galvanized tee and CSV.  I was going to use a 1-1/4" close sch 80 pvc nipple (2" long) but not sure how I would remove the CSV12560-3 from it down the road when replacing the CSV.  A hex close PVC nipple would work but I haven't been able to find one at the size I need.

Any ideas on how to make it easy to change out the CSV12560-3 down the road.  I'd have the union on one side (after the tee) but not sure about the nipple.  Maybe use a galvanized close nipple and just assume I'll mess up the threads when I replace the CSV12560-3 and replace the galvanized nipple at the same time?  Kinda concerned about dissimilar metals.

I wish I had unions right before and right after the CSV12560-3 but I don't think that's possible with the room I have.

Any ideas?  Thanks!
Title: Re: I'd like to optimize my well water system...help needed.
Post by: Cary Austin on December 25, 2021, 07:23:10 AM
Just  screw a short galvanized or brass nipple into the 1 1/4" galv tee.  Use water pipe plyers or channel locks to tighten it into the metal tee, staying in the middle and trying not to bugger the threads on each end.  Then you can teflon tape the metal nipple and screw the CSV125 as tight as needed.  The metal nipple will stay tight in the metal tee.  So, if you need to replace the CSV125 just unscrew the union on the discharge, and unscrew the CSV125 from the metal nipple.  You won't need a backup wrench.
Title: Re: I'd like to optimize my well water system...help needed.
Post by: bjm999 on December 27, 2021, 08:23:44 AM
Ok, I'll use a lead free brass nipple.  Is it ok to use pipe dope on the nipple where it screws into the galvanized tee?  I'll then use Teflon tape on the brass nipple end that goes into the CSV.  Just hand tighten the CSV?
Title: Re: I'd like to optimize my well water system...help needed.
Post by: Cary Austin on December 27, 2021, 08:57:11 AM
Yes on everything except you can get the CSV125  as tight as needed.
Title: Re: I'd like to optimize my well water system...help needed.
Post by: bjm999 on December 28, 2021, 08:26:40 PM
Thanks for letting me try the CSV125!  I was able to change the CSV from a CSV2W to the CSV12560-3.

(https://i.postimg.cc/DzPzxKvm/PXL-20211228-202329884.jpg) (https://postimages.org/) (https://treetop100babynames.com/exotic-baby-names-girls-1)


Here are the results:  ***The pressure is in PSI for each irrigation zone were taken from the tank pressure gauge after reaching steady state***

                CSV2W       CSV12560-3

Zone 1          51                  58

Zone 2          57                  61

Zone 3          49                  53

Zone 4          54                  59

Zone 5          50                  58

Zone 6          61                  61

Zone 7          42                  46

Zone 3 and Zone 7 had the least amount of pressure increase below the 60 PSI set pressure of the CSV.  They both had an increase of only 4 PSI.  From the earlier post in this thread I was thinking the difference would be more like 10 PSI.  I'm not sure it was worth the effort to go with a less robust CSV for those results to be honest.  If it leaks in a couple years due to debris in the water, I'll likely go back to the CSV2W to avoid the hassle/maintenance/expense.  Not sure if I did something wrong but it didn't make a ton of difference like we expected.  Any ideas?

The first time I had everything together I had a couple leaks (1 at the union and 1 at the CSV) so I had to take the union apart and redo the teflon tape on the nipple/CSV connection.  I only hand tightened the CSV per the instructions and after reworking it the 2nd time I only have 1 very slow leak at the nipple/CSV connection.  I put everything I had into hand tightening so I'm kinda scared to try to go 1 more full turn using a wrench.  Should I try 1 more full turn with a wrench or do you think I will jeopardize breaking the valve?  Maybe I should back it back off and try to redo the teflon tape and re hand tighten.  I used about 6 layers of the teflon tape per the instructions.

Thanks again for supplying the CSV12560-3!!!
Title: Re: I'd like to optimize my well water system...help needed.
Post by: Cary Austin on December 29, 2021, 07:37:28 AM
Good info!  I would like to know the pressure before and after the CSV125 when running zone 7? 

Yes you can use a wrench if needed.  But I would probably back it off and add some new teflon before tightening again.
Title: Re: I'd like to optimize my well water system...help needed.
Post by: bjm999 on January 05, 2022, 05:43:22 PM
I was able to connect the pressure gauges to the pipe and get the pressure before and after the CSV125.

With the tank at full pressure but no water running the pressure at the tee (before the CSV125) the pressure was 66 psi.  At the spigot after the CSV125 the pressure was 63 psi, and the pressure at the tank (in my crawl space about 60' away the pressure way 67 psi.

While running zone 7 after a few minutes, at steady state, the pressure at the tee (before the CSV125) was 53 psi.  At the spigot after the CSV125 the pressure was 40 psi, and the pressure at the tank (in my crawl space about 60' away the pressure way 46 psi.  The pictures below are of the gauges with zone 7 running.


This is the gauge at the tee before the CSV125 at 53 psi...
(https://i.postimg.cc/Gtmrx8hk/PXL-20220105-172337097.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)


Here is the gauge after the CSV125 at the spigot.  Looks like it reads ~42 but the camera wasn't straight in front of it.  When I read it directly in front of the gauge it was 40 psi.
(https://i.postimg.cc/yNHMTgLk/PXL-20220105-172351231.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)


This is the gauge at my tank 60' away at 46 psi.
(https://i.postimg.cc/JnTSmTMk/Screenshot-20220105-122322.png) (https://postimages.org/)




Also just for fun here is the pressure at one of the heads on Zone 7.  It read 32 PSI.
(https://i.postimg.cc/3N4fhYts/PXL-20220105-173808978.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)



Seems strange that the gauge at my tank read a higher pressure than at the spigot right after the CSV125.  Also notice the difference before and after the CSV125 was 13 psi.  If I understood your previous post we were expecting that to be ~7 psi.

Think my gauge after the CSV125 (at the spigot) is reading wrong?

Overall thoughts???
Title: Re: I'd like to optimize my well water system...help needed.
Post by: Cary Austin on January 06, 2022, 07:00:42 AM
At steady state the gauge before and after the CSV should be the same.  So, yes one or both of those gauges is off, but that is normal.  Swap those two gauges and you will get a much better reading.  Probably much closer to the 7 PSI loss you should have with a flow rate of about 45 GPM.  The gauge at the house is probably off as well, but you will gain 1 PSI for every 2.31' in elevation drop from the well to the tank.  6 PSI difference would mean your well is 13' higher than the tank at the house.
Title: Re: I'd like to optimize my well water system...help needed.
Post by: bjm999 on January 07, 2022, 07:55:34 AM
The tank is actually a few feet higher than the well.  I don't have 45 GPM in any zone.  Knowing the pressure gauges have some inaccuracies leads me back to the tank pressure gauge reading with Zone 7 running.  With the CSV2W the reading was 42 PSI.  With the CSV12560-3 it was 46 PSI. 

Should the CSV12560-3 only made a 4 PSI difference in your opinion?

Thanks!
Title: Re: I'd like to optimize my well water system...help needed.
Post by: Cary Austin on January 07, 2022, 08:26:58 AM
I was  guessing 7 PSI on the large zone, but gauges are good at lying to you.  Lol.  All that matters is if the sprinklers are shooting far enough?
Title: Re: I'd like to optimize my well water system...help needed.
Post by: bjm999 on January 07, 2022, 08:46:30 AM
Yes the sprinklers are shooting far enough.  I guess this thread was more about optimizing my system.  By that I mean getting a more optimum pressure at the heads (better distribution, coverage, etc.) while also trying to get constant pressure in the house more than I previously did which was never lol.  The CSV12560-3 has done a better job of those things but I'm not sure if it's worth the extra maintenance and long term expense.  I may just see how long it lasts and go from there.

I think the bottom line is I'm likely on the edge of what my pump can produce flow wise and that is leading to the CSV not being much help at giving me constant pressure for most irrigation zones.  It also doesn't give me constant pressure inside the house during most uses.  Really the CSV is only helping give constant pressure at 60PSI on maybe 3-4 zones and inside the house when multiple fixtures are being used.  The pressure drop of the CSV may not be worth the help of providing such limited constant pressure...again this is due to my pump struggling not the CSV. 

I can't help but wonder in my case, if a variable speed pump would be the best answer.  I could eliminate the CSV thus gaining the pressure drop caused by the valve. That would further optimize my irrigation and get more zones closer to the preferred 40 PSI.  It would also create a constant pressure inside the house at most or all flow rates ie. only 1 fixture being used.
Title: Re: I'd like to optimize my well water system...help needed.
Post by: Cary Austin on January 07, 2022, 03:42:30 PM
There is nothing, especially a VFD, that can make a 3HP pump produce more than 3HP worth of water.  There is at least 5% inherent losses in a VFD, which increases slip in the motor, which decreases the max amount a pump can produce.  In most cases, the VFD will produce less water from the same pump as a CSV.  It just can't get to max speed because of the increased slip. Also, because of these inherent losses the minimum flow needed to cool a pump controlled by a VFD is much higher than when using a CSV.  So the pump would actually cycle more for house uses less than about 5 GPM with a VFD, as that is how much it takes to keep the motor cool.

One advantage of the CSV is that you can bypass it.  For zones that are large enough to keep the pump from cycling, just tee off before the CSV.  However, on smaller zones like number 3 and 4 the pump will cycle on/off, as those zones are not using the max flow the pump can produce.  And even though the CSV is not preventing the pump from cycling when using less than 3 GPM, it is still cycling much slower with the CSV filling the tank at 3 GPM than without a CSV where the pump would fill the tank at 40 GPM.

If you can make all your zones large enough to keep the pump from cycling off, then you can tee off to all the irrigation after the CSV.  Then the pressure to the  heads is only limited by the amount the pump can produce while working with no losses from any type of control.  If you drill out your "water saver" washers on the showerheads from 2.5 to 3 GPM, the showers will see could strong constant pressure from the CSV as well.  I find with the so called "water saver" washer drilled out people can get the soap washed off quicker and actually do not use any more water during showers.  They just take quicker showers.

In your case the CSV is not so much for delivering constant pressure to all the zones, but more to keep the pump from cycling itself to death on the smaller zones, as all the zones are not matched to the pump.
Title: Re: I'd like to optimize my well water system...help needed.
Post by: bjm999 on January 18, 2022, 07:16:49 PM
Sorry for the late reply!  Also, thanks for replying and offering possible solutions.  Having some zones before the CSV and some after would require 2 mainlines and 2 controllers.  I think for now, I'll continue to try the CSV12560-3.  I also need to add more sod and another zone near Zone 7.  The new zone was going to be small so I can spilt some head on Zone 7 off to the new zone to help both Zone 7 and the new zone flow rate/pressure.

What's weird is when I tested the water flow in post 4 I got ~35 GPM conservatively.  There's no way Zone 3 is putting out more than about 24 GPM.  Any idea why this zone isn't getting to 60 GPM?

Do you think the stainless version of the CSV12560-3 would last longer?

Thanks again for your help!
Title: Re: I'd like to optimize my well water system...help needed.
Post by: Cary Austin on January 19, 2022, 06:44:54 AM
Without a flow meter it is hard to tell.  But my guess is there is more water going somewhere than you think.  Otherwise it doesn't make any sense.

No the SS version of the CSVS125 will not last any longer.  The internals are the same as the plastic valve.  The SS body is just made to hold more weight when these are installed in the well.
Title: Re: I'd like to optimize my well water system...help needed.
Post by: bjm999 on January 19, 2022, 07:41:03 AM
Sorry in my last post I meant 60 psi not gpm. :)

I would like to add a flowmeter but not sure where to put it.  It may require several pipe diameters of length before and after.  I've had trouble in the past finding a flowmeter reasonably priced for the pipe diameter and range I need.  Do you recommend any?  Something still doesn't seem to be adding up.  The pressure gauges aren't reliable due to error and the flows don't make sense.

Thanks!
Title: Re: I'd like to optimize my well water system...help needed.
Post by: Cary Austin on January 19, 2022, 07:57:32 AM
I agree. I think the gauges are off a bit, which is normal.  But the numbers indicate a higher flow rate than you are saying.  A flow meter would be nice, but they also add more friction loss.  Regardless of the flow rate, the pressure gauge indicates you pump is maxed out, and adding a flow meter would make it worse.
Title: Re: I'd like to optimize my well water system...help needed.
Post by: bjm999 on January 19, 2022, 08:14:09 AM
Yeah, I'd love to have a bypass with the flowmeter.  Then I could turn the flowmeter on when needed and off when not needed thus eliminating the pressure loss during normal conditions.  That probably more trouble than it's worth...but the engineer in me wants to figure this out before letting it go. Lol!

If I went with a larger pump, which would you recommend?  Probably couldn't get one to have constant pressure for my irrigation and house water fixtures I bet.  Ie. If I went with a 5hp pump I'd probably have constant pressure for my irrigation but be stuck with a cycling pump for the indoor fixtures.
Title: Re: I'd like to optimize my well water system...help needed.
Post by: Cary Austin on January 19, 2022, 10:48:56 AM
Did you ever swap those two gauges and do the test from post #33 again? 

One thing for sure if you want 60 PSI the pump will need to be able to build at least 60 PSI at flow or it wouldn't be large enough even without the CSV.

With the right 5HP I can make it work down to about 2 GPM, maybe 1.7 GOM. if that would help with more constant pressure in the house?  But would only give constant pressure when using 2 GPM or more.  The 5HP would up the pressure at the well head by quite a bit, which would let all your zones work at 60 PSI after the CSV125.
Title: Re: I'd like to optimize my well water system...help needed.
Post by: bjm999 on January 19, 2022, 10:57:25 AM
I didn't rerun the test with the gauges swapped.  I can do that though.

Wow, down to 2 GPM....that's pretty good!  Would 2 GPM be enough to keep the pump cool or create any other issues?  Would I be able to take it up to 65 or 70 PSI while still having constant pressure down to 2 GPM...or maybe 3 GPM?  That may just be enough pressure to allow me to install a backflow preventer that is probably needed for my irrigation.
Title: Re: I'd like to optimize my well water system...help needed.
Post by: Cary Austin on January 19, 2022, 11:44:28 AM
Yeah you will lose another 10 PSI through a backflow preventer.  Maybe required, but a vacuum breaker would not cause friction loss.

I will look up some pump curves.  The trick to getting a 5HP to stay cool at 1.7 GPM is finding one that has a good drop in horsepower when restricted with the CSV.  If the amps drop by 40%-50% the motor is de-rated enough to safely pump hot water, so it takes very little cool water to keep them happy.
Title: Re: I'd like to optimize my well water system...help needed.
Post by: Cary Austin on January 19, 2022, 11:51:21 AM
See how this 5HP will drop to 2HP load at low flow?  This pump/motor needs very little cool water to keep it happy.
Title: Re: I'd like to optimize my well water system...help needed.
Post by: bjm999 on January 21, 2022, 11:23:39 AM
This makes a lot of sense.  That would be a nice setup and probably last a long time.  From my quick googling that's not going to be a cheap fix.  Is changing a well pump that may be 300 feet or more deep something the average homeowner could do?  I'm guessing a pro would charge several thousand to make that change.  May be hard to talk the wife into do that.  ;D
Title: Re: I'd like to optimize my well water system...help needed.
Post by: Cary Austin on January 24, 2022, 10:03:25 AM
Yeah looks like one of those 45S50-12 pumps with a 5HP motor would cost almost 4K.  But your well pump cannot be 300' deep from those specs.  I would guess 150' or so.  I would be guessing another 1K for the labor if you can't do it yourself. 
Title: Re: I'd like to optimize my well water system...help needed.
Post by: bjm999 on January 24, 2022, 10:12:16 AM
Are you guessing the depth to water is around 150ft or the actual pump depth is around 150ft?
Title: Re: I'd like to optimize my well water system...help needed.
Post by: Cary Austin on January 24, 2022, 10:14:57 AM
The water level has to be around that depth, and the pump doesn't need to be set much deeper than that.  I am guessing less than 200'.
Title: Re: I'd like to optimize my well water system...help needed.
Post by: bjm999 on January 24, 2022, 10:20:32 AM
Yeah my understanding from the guy the installed the well, the depth to water is around 160 but due to water quality the pump is around 350 ft deep.  Would that make sense based on the data from this thread?
Title: Re: I'd like to optimize my well water system...help needed.
Post by: Cary Austin on January 25, 2022, 07:51:26 AM
Maybe.  But that pump won't make 60 PSI to shut off from 350'.
Title: Re: I'd like to optimize my well water system...help needed.
Post by: bjm999 on January 25, 2022, 08:02:59 AM
Maybe that's the problem then.  Maybe the pump was just undersized.
Title: Re: I'd like to optimize my well water system...help needed.
Post by: Cary Austin on January 25, 2022, 01:10:15 PM
No question the pump is undersized for what you want to do.  That has been the problem through all of this.