I'd like to optimize my well water system...help needed.

[Cary Austin]

It's just for a test.  A pressure gage after the CSV would be OK. But a gage anywhere before the CSV would tell us more.

[bjm999]

Sorry I may be missing something but I'm still not sure what I'm testing.  Turn it 3 times then what?  Let you know what the pressure is at the tank while the irrigation zones are running then turn the bolt back to the current position? 

BTW, there is a tee before the CSV with a plug in it.  It would be possible to attach a pressure gage there I suppose but I'd be nervous messing with the plumbing.  Just kinda scared of creating a leak.

[Cary Austin]

Sorry I may be missing something but I'm still not sure what I'm testing.  Turn it 3 times then what?  Let you know what the pressure is at the tank while the irrigation zones are running then turn the bolt back to the current position? 

BTW, there is a tee before the CSV with a plug in it.  It would be possible to attach a pressure gage there I suppose but I'd be nervous messing with the plumbing.  Just kinda scared of creating a leak.

Yes put a gage there.

[Cary Austin]

Get a 1 1/4" X 1/4" bushing and put a gauge on the tee.  After tightening the CSV bolt about three full turns to the right there should only be about 20 PSI difference in that gauge and the the one on the tank.  If there is high pressure at that tee, move the gauge to the faucet after the CSV.  It there is high pressure after the CSV, something is restricting the flow.

[bjm999]

Sorry it took me a couple days to perform the test.



I turned the adjustment bolt 3 full turns to the right (clockwise) and replaced the plug at the tee with bushings and a pressure gauge.  I also put a gauge at the spigot just down from the CSV.  The tank is under my crawl space and also had a gauge but it's not shown in the pic.

I then ran my irrigation (Zone 5) for 10 minutes to make sure everything reached steady state.

The pressure at the tee (before the CSV) was about 71 PSI.  The pressure at the spigot was about 55 PSI, and the pressure at the tank was about 57 PSI.  What does this info lead you to think the problem is?

I then returned everything back to the way it was before the test.  I noticed before the test the switch would turn off the pump at a tank pressure of 70 PSI even.  It would stay dead on 70 PSI until water was being used.  Now (after the test) the switch turns the pump off at about 68 then slowly the pressure reading goes down to about 64 PSI with no leaks and no water usage.  Any idea why it does this?

Thanks again for your help!

[Cary Austin]

Very good information.  With only 17 PSI loss across the CSV2W, that tells me the zone is about 25 GPM.  If the pumping level is 160' then that pump is doing all it can with 320' total head.  With zones that large, the pump is not cycling on/off even with the CSV disabled.  So, when you add a CSV2W to a zone that is already maxing out the pump, you will lose about 17 PSI.  That CSV2W is designed to reduce the flow/pressure from a pump that is too large for the zones and is doing exactly what it is supposed to do.

Switching to the CSV3A2T would give you back 10 PSI, as that valve would only have 7 PSI loss at 25-30 GPM.  But the zones larger than Zone 5 might still not get up to 60 PSI.

If you have good clean water, the CSV12560-3 will probably do just as good as the CSV3A2T and is much less expensive.  I would be willing to send you a CSV12560-3 for free if you want to try it?  They have much better flow characteristics than the CSV2W but are not as robust, won't last as long, especially if there is any debris in the water.

Reducing the size of the zones to about 20 GPM max would let the CSV2W get it to 60 PSI, as long as the water level stays above 160'.

You are just right at the edge of what that pump can do, and any added friction loss causes a loss of pressure for the big zones.

[bjm999]

Great information!

My tank is about 60 feet away from my CSV.  Would the CSV3A2T be ok that far away?  What about the CSV12560-3?

I'm about to add some sod near zone 7 so that zone could be split when I add zone 8 for the new sod.  Zone 8 was going to be small anyway so adding a couple heads wouldn't hurt and would greatly help my worse zone (zone 7).

I've been thinking I need to add a double check back flow preventer to my irrigation, which will seriously lower the irrigation pressure.  With that in mind it's hard to decide a path forward.

Would it make since to run my irrigation mainline to the tee before the CSV?  If so adding the backflow preventer may equal out the pressure loss the CSV had.

Maybe a bigger pump is the best long term answer.

Maybe adjusting my switch to turn the pump off at a higher pressure would help.

Sorry just brainstorming.  Money isn't too big of a hurdle but I don't think I could put a 2nd well in and changing pumps could sting a little but I would do it if necessary.  Btw, I'd love to have constant pressure down at 3gpm too but that may be asking to much.

With that info what do you think the best solution is?  Maybe a combo of some of the ideas above?

I really appreciate your help!

[Cary Austin]

If your game, let's try a CSV12560-3.  That valve can be 60' or more from the pressure tank/pressure switch.  It will only have maybe 5 PSI loss at 25 GPM, and should maintain 60 PSI from 3 GPM to 25 GPM.  But that also depends on the actual pumping level in the well.  It is an inexpensive thing to try, and will make a ton of difference from the CSV2W.

One option is to spilt the zones up into smaller zones and run the pump longer to get across.  This is a good option unless you are already running 24/7?  The same goes for people who have low producing wells.  I have a 3 GPM well that I irrigate with quite a bit.  I just have to run 24/7 switching from one zone to the next.

If there is a need to have more water, a larger pump is your only option.  Teeing off the irrigation before the CSV will decrease the loss from the CSV2W by 17 PSI.  But adding in the back flow preventer will put that friction loss right back.  Using the large size zones through the CSV2W WITH a back flow preventer will require a larger pump.

I think you will be surprised how much better the pressure will be through the CSV12560-3.  With this valve 60 PSI is the limit and it is not adjustable, but it will stay 60 PSI through a wide range of flow.  Call Corye at the office and tell her I said to send you a CSV12560-3.  If you are willing to install it, I am willing to supply it, and we can give it a try before going to a more expensive alternative.

I love how you have documented everything, which will be a great way for people to see the difference in performance of the CSV2W and the CSV125.  Many people think the heavy brass CSV2W valve is better than the plastic CSV125 valve.  For longevity and handling debris it is, but for performance it is not.  I use the CSV125 myself, because it has the better flow characteristics than any valve I have, including the CSV3A2T.

[bjm999]

I'm guessing some zones are currently putting out a little more than 25 gpm.  The CSV12560-3 is rated up to 50gpm so I wouldn't think that would be a problem.

Converting the zones to more zones with lower flow wouldn't be an option except for zone 7 which is my highest flow zone... Kinda got lucky on that.

The CSV12560-3 would help keep my pump from cycling when I'm using water inside the house too ie. 3gpm compared to 5gpm for the CSV2W.

The only tricky part is installation.  I may not have room to install it without a lot of rework.

If like to try it but let me take a few measurements first.

Thanks!

[Cary Austin]

If wiring more zones is the problem, sometimes you can just put smaller nozzles in the sprinklers and run them a little longer.

Yeah I think the CSV125 will do both lower and higher flows for you.  If you use a 1 1/4" PVC sch 80 threaded close nipple in the inlet of the CSV125 and a 1 1/4" male adapter in the outlet, I think there will be enough room not to need a triple elbow to get back to the line going down. The CSV125 can also be installed in the well, but that requires pulling the pump up a few feet.

[bjm999]

Great point on the close nipple!  That will likely give me enough room to make the plumbing easy.  I'm just not sure how much debris I have in the water.  What would be a sign that I have to much debris for the CSV125?  Hopefully a CSV125 would last a long time.  Changing them out frequently wouldn't be much fun.  It may help to put a union right after the CSV.

I'm willing to try it.  I'll call Corye.

Thanks for everything!

[Cary Austin]

Debris in the water causes the CSV125 to leak from the air vents under the red coupling.  Lots of them have lasted 20+ years and still working when used with fairly clean water.  If it last 2-3 years it is still an economical way to do it.  But if it won't last a year there is too much stuff in the water for that valve.  Might have room below the tee to install a union, which would make replacement fairly easy.

[bjm999]

Ok I'm starting to gather everything I need to change the CSV.  I'm trying to make it easy to change in the future in case I need to replace the CSV12560-3 every few years.  I'll put a union below the tee like we discussed but not sure what to do about the nipple between the galvanized tee and CSV.  I was going to use a 1-1/4" close sch 80 pvc nipple (2" long) but not sure how I would remove the CSV12560-3 from it down the road when replacing the CSV.  A hex close PVC nipple would work but I haven't been able to find one at the size I need.

Any ideas on how to make it easy to change out the CSV12560-3 down the road.  I'd have the union on one side (after the tee) but not sure about the nipple.  Maybe use a galvanized close nipple and just assume I'll mess up the threads when I replace the CSV12560-3 and replace the galvanized nipple at the same time?  Kinda concerned about dissimilar metals.

I wish I had unions right before and right after the CSV12560-3 but I don't think that's possible with the room I have.

Any ideas?  Thanks!

[Cary Austin]

Just  screw a short galvanized or brass nipple into the 1 1/4" galv tee.  Use water pipe plyers or channel locks to tighten it into the metal tee, staying in the middle and trying not to bugger the threads on each end.  Then you can teflon tape the metal nipple and screw the CSV125 as tight as needed.  The metal nipple will stay tight in the metal tee.  So, if you need to replace the CSV125 just unscrew the union on the discharge, and unscrew the CSV125 from the metal nipple.  You won't need a backup wrench.

[bjm999]

Ok, I'll use a lead free brass nipple.  Is it ok to use pipe dope on the nipple where it screws into the galvanized tee?  I'll then use Teflon tape on the brass nipple end that goes into the CSV.  Just hand tighten the CSV?