Messages

1

Pumps, Wells, Tanks, Controls / Re: Wild pump-side pressure swings at startup

« on: December 15, 2022, 08:07:44 PM »

A warranty on the valve does me no good, I need a new pump and for that matter a whole new tank setup. I don't know how long it was before I realized the first valve went bad, but seeing how fast this new one is chewing itself up it's fair to say my pump had been short cycling a long time. And no, there's not nearly that much sand. The problem seems rather obvious, I have a deep well application and the high differential pressure on valve is ripping it apart. Before my pump was compromised I had a 130-140 psi differential, but at the outset I was told that was fine. You repeatedly claim that in all your years there has never been a pump failure from a "properly" installed valve, but then throughout this forum you constantly advise people how to improperly install your product. In post after post after post you tell potential customers well yes the spec says a max differential pressure of 125 psi but you're fine at 150psi, well yes the valve will produce a 200psi back pressure against your pipe rated for 160psi but that will be fine, well yes we'd like to see a minimum of 1min run time but with my valve 30sec will be fine, and on and on and on. Well yes, they're probably fine initially but for how long? The valve in my application failed and burned out my pump and your response is buy a new pump but keep everything else the same. Seriously???

Don't get me wrong I think you have a great product and really like it, I just don't have an application it fits. Every product has an application range it excels in but then also a range that just isn't a good fit. It seems however that blind faith in your product seems to blind you from this most fundamental fact. You clearly have a lot of experience and know your stuff, and therefore should be able to responsibly advise people not only when your product will fix their problem but also tell them when it won't.
 

2

Pumps, Wells, Tanks, Controls / Re: Wild pump-side pressure swings at startup

« on: December 14, 2022, 10:03:23 PM »

So I don't need a 20 gal tank, that's interesting. Let's see, I replaced the CSV1a valve back in July, and back then I had a 45sec tank fill time using a tank almost twice the size of your recommended configuration. That is by the way about the same fill time I had with the original valve and back then I was told it was fine. Now, 6 months later, the tank fill time is 30sec. What's it going to be in another 6 months? So I need to get a new pump, I don't need a larger tank, but then I follow with what? A new valve every 6months? Every 3 months? Or every week???

3

Pumps, Wells, Tanks, Controls / Re: Wild pump-side pressure swings at startup

« on: December 13, 2022, 05:23:06 PM »

Ok, new pump it is. Knew it my heart, but had to ask. I'll let the boys enjoy their holiday break and then give em a call in Jan. I think I'll also upgrade the pressure tank from 7gal to 20gal. It'll give more safety margin and hopefully limit the debate I anticipate with the pump folks over the CSV.

One more question if you'll entertain it. I've always had a sediment problem with the well and have a spin down filter followed by a whole house filter placed after the tank. The spin down was previously a Rusco with a 140micron mesh. It would need to be flushed every week or so and taken out and cleaned every month or so. I've recently replaced that with an iSpring wsp50j. This has a 50micron screen but it has a significantly larger filter area. I also automated the flush such that it's done based on pump operating time and is done rather frequently. Seems to work well so far. I'm thinking about placing that between the CSV and the pressure tank (keeping the whole house filter after the tank). I see there's a lot of debate as to whether sediment can ruin a tank, but I can't get it out of my head that it did contribute to the early demise of my original tank. I also really like the idea of the spin down being ahead of the tank because a flush will actually bring water back through the mesh screen and force crud out of it rather than just flush around the outer mesh. Should be much more effective, at least theoretically. I've seen posts about the concern of a clogged filter preventing enough water flow to fill the tank and shut off the pump, but I think the large mesh area and auto-flush should minimize the likelihood of that. Then again, while replacing a tank isn't cheap it's much less painful than replacing a pump. Would appreciate your view and in particular is there anything I'm overlooking as I debate myself. Seemingly good ideas in the past have gotten me where I am today - in need of a new pump....

4

Pumps, Wells, Tanks, Controls / Re: Wild pump-side pressure swings at startup

« on: December 13, 2022, 08:31:07 AM »

Ok, thanks for that info. Prior to originally putting in the CSV I had a water-logged tank and the pump was short cycling for who knows how long before I discovered it. Likewise I don't know how long the CSV guts were worn out before I replaced it. I've learned my lesson and have now put in place monitoring for short cycling (using home automation devices).

The motor is 2 wire. The overload tripping explains the complete water cut-off. What causes the startup pressure and current draw swings? Is that because of existing damage to the pump? Are there any adjustments I can make to reduce this (e.g. higher/lower CSV setpoint)? What's your view as to the status of the pump. Am I likely heading for a complete failure in a year or two and therefore may as well bite the bullet and replace it now?

5

Pumps, Wells, Tanks, Controls / Wild pump-side pressure swings at startup

« on: December 12, 2022, 05:04:16 PM »

Hi, I’ve had a CSV1A system for over 5 years with seemingly no problem. This summer I found the pump short-cycling and found I needed to replace the gutpack. Since doing so I’ve been having intermittent problems. On 3 separate occasions I lost all water pressure about 5 minutes into a shower (2 shower heads going, probably about 5gpm). The water pressure comes back perhaps a minute or so after shutting it off. I’ve been trying to diagnose what’s going on, and I’ve found that pump side water pressure and also motor amp draw can swing wildly at startup. I don’t know if this is related to my problem or not but would appreciate any insights. Here are details of my setup, followed by more info on my observations.

500ft well, static level 90ft, yield 3gpm.
1HP Goulds pump (model M10422) placed at 480'. Don't have info on water-end but crudely measured about 12gpm.
WellXtrol WX103 7.6g tank, about a 2gal draw-down (verified by measuring it), precharge at 48psi
50 - 70 psi switch
CSV1A adjusted to 55psi
Normally see about 140psi pump-side when CSV sets at 55psi

I’m finding erratic operation at pump startup. I’ve run tests turning on the 2 showerheads. Following pump turn-on I see the pump-side pressure wildly swing between about 50psi and 140psi and the motor current swing between 10A and 20A. The tank side pressure holds steady slightly over 50psi, but below the 55psi setpoint. Eventually it settles with pump-side at 140psi and tank-side at 55psi and power draw about 11A. The amount of time these swings last before settling varies wildly. In one case it went on for 30 sec, in others it can settle very quickly. In the 30sec swing startup case I continued running the shower for about 20 minutes. Everything held rather steady although tank-side pressure very slowly dropped to about 50psi (I assume because of well water draw-down).

I don’t recall these startup swings occurring in the past and can’t really imagine it’s related to the gutpack replacement unless perhaps I have problems with the adjustment. I also don’t know if it’s at all related to the times I lost all water pressure, unless it’s perhaps indicative of some intermittent pump problem. I don’t believe it’s a problem with water level in the well. I’m in the NC mountains and this has been an extremely wet year and the last several years have been above normal. Never had problems with water even in dry years.

Any suggestions on how to diagnose would be greatly appreciated. I’m getting ready to call in the pros, but I’m concerned the first thing they’ll say is get rid of the CSV and after that they’ll shrug their shoulders because the problems are intermittent and may not present itself when they’re here.

6

Valve Tech / Re: CSV1A, fill time & rolloff, strange operation

« on: August 01, 2016, 03:58:00 PM »

Thanks for that input Cary. The 2gpm min at high differential explains what I'm seeing with the 1min fill time as well as gradual tank fill when only 1 faucet is on. I still don't understand where the higher than expected psi roll-off is coming from. In looking at the CSV1A curves, combining both friction and reduced pressure rolloff, I expect to see about 3psi change when going from 2gpm to 5gpm. You indicate there could be an addition 1 or 2 psi because of the 130psi differential, but I'm seeing about 10psi change which is twice what we've accounted for. I understand that the pump pressure will drop as the well water level drops, but that's not what's happening in the few minutes I'm running the test and seeing the change.

I understand what you're saying about reduced current, cooler motor, and less need for even a 1min run time. That's consistent with what I've read in these forums and I'm comfortable with that. My rationale for targeting a 2min run time was actually based on our water use patterns and to try to reduce pump cycling. We draw water in a rather conservative on-off fashion. Meal prep for example is on-off while washing veggies, filling pans, wiping counters, etc. Likewise bathroom routine on-off for tooth-brushing, shaving, so-forth. So a lot of on-off, but these come in bursts of activity. If there is a 2min run time there's a rather good chance that all the individual on-off cycles spreads out to the point the pump may only see a single cycle, or at least a minimal number. That's not so likely as the run-time falls below 1min. Also because of the on-off nature there's a fairly good chance that the tank will empty just as demand is turned off, so it's likely the pump will run the minimum fill time on a regular basis. Just to complete the picture our outdoor water use is minimal. No regular irrigation or car-washing, normally just an occasional spot watering of plants and perhaps a deck washing a couple times a year.

Prior to your input I was thinking of going with the dual valve, and perhaps using a CSV125 to limit the rolloff. The statement about 2gpm for cooling flow on my pump setup is really new information for me though, hadn't seen that discussed in other threads. If that's out my options seem to be go back to a traditional tank on a 40-60 switch or keep the current csv setup, although I don't really like the 70psi cutoff and will likely reduce that to 65psi which will lower my fill time to under 1min. I suspect I'm to the point of over-thinking this and will just go with the latter.

You say the high differential pressure will eat the guts out of the CSV sooner, what symptoms can I expect to see when that starts happening?

Thanks again, Joe

7

Valve Tech / CSV1A, fill time & rolloff, strange operation

« on: July 30, 2016, 05:35:56 PM »

Hi, I just installed a new CSV1A system and am seeing rather unexpected operation. I'd appreciate any input or suggestions on actions I might take. System is as follows:
500ft well, static level 90ft, yield 3gpm.
1HP Goulds pump (model M10422) placed at 480'. Don't have info on water-end but crudely measured about 12gpm.
WellXtrol WX103 7.6g tank, about a 2gal draw-down (verified by measuring it), precharge at 48psi
50 - 70 psi switch
CSV1A adjusted to 55psi at 1.7gpm, drops to 48psi at 3.5gpm, 44psi at 5gpm. About 4x the rolloff vs. the spec.

I went with the slightly larger tank with the objective of having about a 2min tank fill time and was expecting to achieve this with a 50-65psi switch setting. However even after pushing the switch to 70psi I only get a 1min fill time when the water demand is turned off just as the pump starts. If I leave demand for some time after the pump starts the tank will then complete filling in less than 30sec. Also as noted the reduced pressure rolloff is much higher than I expected.

Lastly, if I turn on a single faucet and let the pump start the valve will settle in at 55psi as expected. If I turn on a second and third faucet the pressure rolls-off as noted. Now if I turn off these additional faucets and just leave the one on the pressure slowly rises but continues on past the set point until reaching 70psi at which point the pump shuts off. Seems very strange.

As full disclosure, I'm pushing the valve differential pressure limit to about 130psi. I'm wondering if the closed valve flow rate and rolloff curves are specified for a much lower differential or if they're expected to be valid up to the 125psi differential. If it's the latter I wouldn't expect such a difference from pushing to 130psi. I'm willing to get a second valve to split the differential, but don't want to take that step if it's not likely to resolve these issues.

Thanks for any advice or suggestions.
Joe