Need Advice on Setup for a Resto in the Philippines

[DinersBakers]

I am a Swiss living here in the Philippines and about to open a Resto/Bar. I have built yet another well which will be 70 feet deep with a 6 Inch PVC casing. I have a Goulds 25GS15 (25 is the max GPM and 15 = 1.5 HP) with a Franklin Motor and I have ordered a CSV1A. My estimated water consumption would be about 1000 Gallons per day but this could become more. I live in the province of the Philippines and there is no chance to find anybody knowledgeable about the whole setup of a water system - a plumber here is somebody who knows how to join PVC pipes but you have to provide the design. If not they might do very interesting things :-) ....

My hope is that the yield from the well is sufficient to build the system without intermediate storage tanks. The loss of PSI due to the filters will be about 15 and so I would like the valve PSI setting as high as reasonable. Let's state 45 PSI as the minimum after the filters.

And here my questions:

1) I tried to use the "Minimum Pump Run Time Calculator" to figure out the size of the pressure tank that I need but I am not so sure whether I use it correctly.  The values I entered are 0.7 GPM (is this right? I just divided the 1000 Gallons by 24 * 60 minutes), 70 Valve Setting and 60/80 for the pressure tank.  The result would be a 32 Gallon tank ... a fool with a tool. So I really would need advice on the size / specs of the pressure tank that I have to look for.

2) Would you recommend to me to get the Cycle Sensor Pump Monitor in this setup?

3) Maybe this is a stupid question but I have to ask it :-) ... do I need a check valve anywhere between the submersible pump and the CSV?

4) Any other advice is welcomed ... maybe everything is wrong what I am trying to do.

I am an IT person and far from being knowledgeable about water systems. But after my experience here with my first well built by drillers and plumbers here (diameter 1 3/4 Inch with no screen, 70 feet and a screaming jet pump - all with a very low yield) I was forced to google and read. 

Any help is more than appreciated ... thanks in advance.

[Cary Austin]

The Goulds submersible should have a check valve on it, and that is the only one you need.  The run time calculator is for worst case scenarios only.  You only need that large of a tank if you have less than 1 GPM leaking 24 hours a day.   Normally system do not leak so a 4.5 gallon size tank is fine, a 10 gallon is the largest I would use.  Cycle Sensor is a good idea if there is any chance of pumping the well dry.

[DinersBakers]

thanks for this - this makes things clear.

[Cary Austin]

I am also an old well driller.  Been in the business for about 50 years.  I would be glad to answer any questions you have.  I saw were you were asking on another forum, which is the worst forum to be asking any questions on.  Wasting your time and getting bad answers over there.

[DinersBakers]

  ... sorry did not see your post earlier. And yes I was on this worst forum ever :-) ... I did not know that I could ask these questions as well here. Anyhow the well is done since yesterday and the yield seems to be very promising. Btw. - I have now 2 CSV's - the first took very long for delivery and Amazon gave me a refund but it subsequently arrived and the second CSV I ordered here on this site together with a cycle sensor.

Because all my water knowledge is pure theory from reading I welcome any type of help from people with experience. Here in the Philippines the experience is quite a challenge - if somebody ever touched a PVC water pipe here he immediately calls himself a plumber.

So let me summarize what I am gonna do now:

1. Install the submersible pump - a Goulds GS2515 with a 1.5 HP Franklin Motor plus Control Box.
2. My approach is to settle the pump at about 1.5 meter above the well screen at the bottom.
3. The well is 70 feet deep and the static water level is at about 15 feet.
4. I intend to acquire a Varem pressure tank (that's what they have here) of 20 liters (5.3 Gallons).
5. My thinking is to have the pressure tank at 55/75 and the CSV at 65. Because the filtration system after the pressure tank will consume about 15 PSI I will still get 50 in the house with a short low of 40 when the pressure tank is at its cut on point.
6. At last I will install a whole house water filtration system and then connect the house.

Interesting or better challenging will be to set the pressure switch and the CSV - I never did that of course and I am sure my "plumber" here did not do it yet either. Also interesting will be the discovery of new leaks :-) after the pressure got up from a max of 40 now to a max of 60 / 50 in the house with the new system. I intend to use PVC pipes everywhere (unless I get an advice to use PPR) - I will use 11/4 Inch from pump to pressure tank, 1 Inch from pressure tank to house and 3/4 inch to the individual consumers. Given your recommendation I will not install an additional check valve before the pressure tank - the Goulds has an internal check valve.

Of course I am happy with any advice :-) ... thanks anyhow.

[Cary Austin]

Wow!  You are doing good!  You don't need much help.  The check valve on the 25GS15 pump is really the only one needed.  The tank should be fine and will need 50 PSI air charge before installing to use with the 55/75 pressure switch.  At that pressure tanks don't hold as much water so you could really use two of those 5.3 gallon size tanks or one larger tank.  But with lite use the 5.3 gallon will still be fine.

To set the pressure switch just turn the large adjustment screw until it comes on at about 55 and off at about 75.  Doesn't have to be exact.  Best not to mess with the small adjustment screw.

After the pressure tanks just go on to the filters and to use at the house anyway you want.

[DinersBakers]

Well I am not really doing good .... I feel like being in the wrong movie here. Let me tell you what happened. We installed the submersible pump at about 55 feet (of 70) and let it run. It sucked a lot of sand in the beginning but slowly improved. It ran for 3 hours providing the yield at the maximum of the Goulds / Franklin pump of 25 GPM ... I thought I am in water heaven but then it happened ... the pump fell down a couple of feet because the pipe was not correctly fixed. Good luck we used a rope so we could get it out again. Because of the weekend I could not buy new PVC pipes and so we could only start another try today. The outcome of today was that apparently the well is almost halfway filled with very fine sand - no way to place a pump.

What they are suggesting now is to get the well driller here again to fix the issue. I have some doubts that this will ever work but I am far from being an expert. They might be successful to get the sand out but my fear is that even when I put the pump higher we will run into the same problem again. The big question is whether there is a feasible way to fix the situation or do I have to drill well number 5 with every measure taken to avoid sand take in. Note as it is common here there is no gravel pack at the bottom and the sand is really very very fine.

[Cary Austin]

Sorry for your problems!  The pipe in the well should be stronger.  Never use glued sch 40 PVC in the well.  You can use threaded sch 80 with metal couplings, or 125-160# black poly pipe with long barb fittings and two hose clamps at each. 

Small sand is hard to keep out.  But a fine gravel pack and really small perferations would help a lot.  The driller maybe able to drop a pipe and blow the sand out with air.  If he will blow for a while after the well is open again, it may get rid of a lot of sand.

Also pumping the well hard like 25-30 GPM from that pump could draw in sand.  You want to valve off the flow from the pump so it doesn't pull the water level down very much.  If you pull the water level down a lot, the sand above dries out and sluffs off like beach sand.  Keep the water level high, the sand stays wet, and doesn't sluff off.

[DinersBakers]

thanks Cary. I am waiting for the driller to find a way to get the sand out. The sand is only 10 feet at the bottom - I apparently misunderstood my Filipino workers. I will also follow your advice regarding the PVC pipes - the issue is that that I never saw anything else here than the Sched 40 pipes - here in the Philippines you can only dream of buying threaded sch 80 with metal couplings, or 125-160# black poly pipes ... :-) ... I might get PPR pipes but I need to go to a bigger town to get the 1 1/4 Inch variant. I am still searching. I will set the pump higher next time and I will valve off the flow to about 12 - 15 GPM ... 12 GPM is the target value for connecting to the house - I have 3 10x54" Pentair Filters with Fleck valves which anyhow can only process 12 GPM. Probably I just was too excited to watch the 25 GPM flow ... I admit it is fascinating :-) ...