CSV for me?

[pacnw]

so I have been in this home for 6 years and the house has been here since 2000. I do not know anything specific about my well pump.
I came across this site and have read all that I can to educate myself.
I want to finally have city type constant pressure.
I have 1 1/4" pvc feeding my system, a 40/60 pressure switch and a bladder tank(size not known off the top of my head).
I irrigate when nobody is home, 3 bath house with just 2 full time people and occasional visitors, standard water heater, laundry and 1 jacuzzi tub.
I have not determined my GPM yet.
Why do I want any of your products over the other and which one would you suggest? Do you need more info before making a recommendation?

Thanks

[Karen Austin]

Normally the valve size needed is determined by your pump HP or max gpm demanded.  Even though your pipe size is 1 1/4",  you may not need a valve any larger than 1".  The valve model is determined by the total pressure or head that your pump can provide..sometimes well depth is a good indicator of this as well if you don't have a pump model number.  Pressure tank size will determine the setting of the Cycle Stop Valve.  Check out our 1" or 1 1/4" model valves...CSV1 or CSV1W for 1" models for flow ranges from 1 to 25 gpm and  CSV125 or CSV2W for 1 1/4" models for flow ranges from 3 to 50 gpm.

[Cary Austin]

Why do I want any of your products over the other and which one would you suggest?

Well you would want a CSV so you could have “city like” constant pressure in your house, keep the pump from cycling itself to death, eliminate water hammer, keep from wearing out the bladder in your tank, check valve, pressure switch, and make everything in the system last longer.

If the pump is less than 25 GPM, any of our CSV1 series will probably work fine.  If you have a fairly large tank, you won’t see the constant pressure until the tank is empty, the pump starts, and the tank is refilled to the pressure the CSV holds constant.  With a small tank this happens very quickly, so before you get the water temp adjusted, you are up and running at constant pressure.  With a large tank you maybe half way through a shower before you see constant pressure.

The CSV1W comes preset at 50 PSI.  This valve also comes with our Pside-Kick kit that includes a 4.4 gallon pressure tank and all the fittings needed for a new installation.  The CSV1Z can be adjusted to any pressure you need.  Even our CSV1-50 will work if you are careful of the location it is installed.

[Hoss]

I recently took out a competitors constant pressure valve (about 3 weeks ago) and returned it to the company I bought it from.  Of course I haven't received word or money back yet, like Cary prophesied.  I installed the CSV1W on my system.  It works perfectly.  The competitors model requires a minimum of 3 gallons per minute usage and if you don't have that much usage it builds pressure until it turns off your pump.  In other words, your pump continues to cycle unless you are using alot of water. 

The Cycle Stop Valve continues to work down to 1 gpm.  So in answer to your question as to why you should shop here instead of the competitor, let me state that unless you have a shower, dishwasher, clothes washer or any other water fixture that exceeds 3 gpm, the competitors valves don't work period.   The other day my clothes washer that fills very slowly was filling and I went outside and my pump was running and maintaining my constant pressure I set for it.  I was so happy.  You sound like your water needs are very close to mine.  Trust me, I have no vested interest in your happiness or in Cycle Stop Valves profits, but do yourself a favor spend maybe $30.00 more for a valve that will do what it says it will do and will never clog.  The competitors will tell you in their paperwork that your water has to be pre filtered or very clean prior to going into their valve otherwise the small hole they drilled in the valve will clog and smoke your pump.  Cycle Stop Valves cannot clog. 

I hope you make the right decision, otherwise you end up replacing a 3 lb paperweight with the valve you should have bought in the first place.  Learn from my mistake.  Go to school on my experience.

Hoss

[pacnw]

so I have a 42 gallon bladder pressure tank.

what about the Amtrol Well-X-1 unit?

how does it differ from what the CSV does?

[Hoss]

I believe you are asking the question, how does a CSV work with a larger bladder pressure tank.  My pressure tank is 82 gallons with a 25 gallon draw down and it works great.  If this is the question your asking, read the thread between myself and Cary in the Valve Tech subheading on the front page.  The thread is entitled "New CSV to replace my other".  Cary walked me through it and I replaced the competitors model but didn't quite understand how to adjust the new CSV with a large pressure tank.  I did what he said and again, I couldn't be happier.  I don't mean to barge in on your thread since I'm not an expert, I'm just real excited about the CSV and how it worked for me.  Cary can definitely answer your questions and put your mind at ease. 

[pacnw]

my question was how does the CSV differ from the Well-X1 in either positive or negative?

looks to me the Well-X1 may short cycle the pump to maintain its pressure differential setting and the tighter the differential the more it will cycle the pump to maintain it.

If I understand, the CSV takes a direct pump pressure greater than its setting and maintains it, say 60psi, without electrically cycling the pump. The pump is cycled by the pressure switch which is feed by the pumps reduced pressure.

I still do not get the entire concept of the bleed hole and exact CSV operation.

[Hoss]

Again, I'm not the pro here. I'll explain how I understand it.  I'll take my situation for example.  I have an 82 gallon pressure tank with a 25 gallon draw down.  When my pressure tank is full (and my pressure switch is 40/60) and I turn on a water spicket, after I have drained the pressure tank to a pressure of 40 lbs, my jet pump comes on, at that time the CSV is wide open allowing the maximum water volume through it.  I'm still watering my trees or taking a shower or whatever and the pump is running and the CSV is going all out. 

Let's say I am taking a shower with a shower head is rated at 2 gpm. I have my CSV set at 58 psi.  Once my pump pushes the pressure to 58 psi, the CSV will begin to regulate the pressure at 1 gpm so that the pump will continue to run as long as I'm taking my shower because my shower head is calling for 2 gpm.  As soon as my shower is done and all other water usage is off, the CSV allows the pump to fill the pressure tank at 1 GPM until the pressure switch reaches 60 psi and turns off the pump.  This takes about 3 minutes.  I have a pressure tank that is too big as far as I'm concerned but with the CSV it still works. 

Once my big bladder tank finally gives up the ghost, I will go to a small pressure tank with a draw down of less than 5 gallons that way my pump will come on quicker but will also turn off quicker and I will reset my pressure closer to 50 lbs instead of 58 lbs.  I love the fact that the CSV is mechanical and not electrical like a VFD pump.  Again, I'm a novice and probably even a neophyte, but I've done alot of reading and question asking from other forums besides this one and the CSV is one of the best choices for longevity of your pump, pressure tank, pressure switch and all components because your pump is cycling less.  It's too bad that most people that have wells and pumps don't know how valuable the CSV is.  What's even more sad is that pump and well companies don't know about it or simply don't buy into it because it won't make them money. 

[Cary Austin]

Thanks Hoss!  Nothing better than a glowing reference from someone who has tried one of the competitor’s products and is able to compare it to a CSV.

The Well-X-1 is just a pressure switch that can have a narrow bandwidth between on and off.  Instead of on at 40 and off at 60, they claim on at 50 and off at 60 is constant pressure.  Of course this is not constant pressure, just less of a pressure differential.  This will cycle the pump on and off twice as much as usual.  So you need to use it with a pressure tank that is twice as big, just to keep from increasing the number of cycles.  It is a reach to say that 10 PSI between on and off is “constant pressure”.  But it is more “consistent pressure”, and gets you to use twice as large a pressure tank, which is the main reason a tank company is promoting it.

Without a CSV your 42 gallon tank is too small already.  10 PSI between on and off would make your 42 gallon tank act like a 20 gallon tank, and the pump would cycle to death quickly.

We have a pressure switch that will do exactly the same thing.  See the EPS15-99.  When used with a CSV, 10 PSI between on and off is fine because a 20 gallon tank is really larger than you need as Hoss described.  It would also make Hoss’s 80 gallon tank act like a 40 gallon tank.  This would let you see “constant pressure” much sooner when you start using water.

Once the tank is empty and the pump is started, the CSV “will hold constant pressure” for as long as you are using water.  The 1 GPM bypass lets the tank refill at 1 GPM after you turn off the last faucet.

[pacnw]

So,

I should have an 80 gallon tank, or larger, with my current set up to keep from short cycling the pump and have a more even pressure?

If I get a CSV you recommend a smaller tank, like the complete set up, PSIde-Kick with a4.4 gallon tank, to start the pump and constant CSV setting immediately. Once the demand is met than the 1 GPM flow rate of the CSV with satisfy the off setting in a quick time. The last portion is satisfied at the 1 GPM, but majority is satisfied at the CSV setting.

I deal with pressure reducing valves for boiler systems in residential settings. I feel it is an equivalent device to those with the exception of the bleed hole and reduced flow rate at the end of demand. It takes city(pump) pressure(80+) and reduces it to a setting(50 on CSV or 12-14 on a boiler) and maintains it if there is a demand. Correct?

[Cary Austin]

An 80 gallon tank holds about 25 gallons of water.  It actually makes your pressure LESS even, because the pressure will get lower and lower for a longer period of time before the pump starts.  Then the pressure will get higher and higher for a longer period of time before the pump shuts off.

You are right about how the CSV functions except there is no "bleed hole".  It basically has a non-closing seat.  Think two half moon notches that come together to make a small hole.  This has many advantages, as the "hole" cannot become clogged with debris or deposits.  It also eliminates one of the most common failures of a control valve, which is a leaking valve seat.  We purposely make the valve leak as a bypass, and this bypass amount keeps the pump cool and is the rate that fills the tank.  The non-closing valve can also be made to operate much faster than a fully closing valve, to better keep up with flow changes in the system.  A fully closing valve would cause water hammer on open and close if made to operate as fast.

The CSV is a simple valve with a complicated explanation and a thousand ways to use it.  Simple is what makes it dependable, and more likely water will come out of a faucet when the tap is opened.

[pacnw]

so I am constantly bypassing at a minimum of 1GPM but up to the pump maximum?
the CSV regulates the pressure to its setting, say 50psi, at all GPM flow?
the pressure switch still is set at 40/60psi or do you change that setting?

I think I get the concept, but like to know exactly why/how it works.

Thanks

[Cary Austin]

With the CSV set at 50 PSI, it tries to maintain 50 PSI to the system.  If you use enough water that the pressure drops to 49 PSI, the CSV just opens up like a piece of pipe.  When the pressure gets up to 50 PSI, the CSV sees you need less water and starts closing off some of the flow to match the amount being used, so the pressure stays constant at 50 PSI.  At 51 PSI the CSV closes and the two half moon notches come together and allow 1 GPM to continue through the valve.  Since at this point you have all the faucets closed, there is no place left for this 1 GPM, except to go into the pressure tank.  Then the tank fills from 51 to 60 PSI at 1 GPM.  If you have a large tank, filling from 50 to 60 could take too long.  So we set the CSV at 58 PSI, and the tank is only filled from 58 to 60 at 1 GPM so it doesn't take as long. 

Have you played with the graphic?  http://www.cyclestopvalves.com/simple/home.php?anim=1well

It will show you how the CSV works.