New Install.....need Advice

[kirkdj]

I need some advice, as I am not 100% sure my well guy is figuring things correctly.  They drilled a new 6" well and hit a large vein at 385 ft.  The well guy drilling estimated a conservative 80-90 gpm.......he was unsure but said it may be as high as 100 gpm......he said the well will never go dry regardless how much I use!!!  They did not know for sure the water level in the well and they were already quoting a pump I needed.  After discussion I figured out that they needed to know the water level to figure out the right pump and tank.  So the guy told me to drop a marble size rock in the well and time it until I hear the splash.  I did it twice with a stop watch app and it times at 2.8 seconds.......he said 25 ft. per sec. which comes out to 70 ft. for the water level.

This is what they are proposing to me for a system, a Goulds 10GS10 pump (10 gpm, 1 HP, 1 1/4" discharge, set at 300 ft.), a Goulds 44 gal tank (w/15 gal. draw down), I presume 1 1/4" pipe between the two which is approx. 100 ft. to the basement, pressure sw., etc. etc.
The house is new 2900 sq. ft., 4 bedroom, 3.5 bath........and I may possibly want to be able to run sprinklers or maybe even install a sprinkler system if needed later.

The Gould charts for this pump says at 80 ft. water level with a 40/60 sw. settings, that this 10GS10 pumps out 15.5gpm to 13.7 gpm.  It also list a shutoff pressure of 132 lbs.

My concerns are mostly having a proper sizing so that the pump cycles are at least 2 mins., .......also the guy says the pump at 300 ft. can handle this load all day long, as the 300 ft. level doesn't affect the pump.... he said it is only pumping the water the 70 ft., the remainder of the pipe coloum is just the draw down available for the pump should I ever need it.  I mentioned do we need a larger tank since this pump can basically supply that 15 gal. draw down in 1 min.  I also asked if we needed a CSV valve.......he knew what they were, but apparently they only use them to correct water hammer, etc.  they apparently don't use them to control pump cycles.....plus he mentioned a couple hundred to install one.  He seemed to be getting aggravated with my questioning his pump wisdom so I let it go.......thinking I can add the CSV if needed later on.  If so, which CSV do I need, I want to install it in the basement and maybe have one that is adjustable......but I've read some leak a little.....please advise...

Also he is quoting me $1985 for the Goulds pump, wire, piping, etc. to install it at the well head, and set a temp tank setup to use during construction.  Then after construction he's quoting another $1135 to install to the house, approx. 100ft. set tank and system up.........this is located in NC......do these prices sound in line or HIGH ?  .............this did not include the drilling cost which was $8 a foot @ 385 ft = $3080.

Any help/advice the experts can give will be greatly appreciated!!   

[Cary Austin]

A 10GS10 is a little overkill if the water level stays around 80’.  But if there is a chance the water level can pull down to say 250’, then that pump can still deliver about 6 GPM.  A well that can produce 100 GPM shouldn’t pull down very much.  I think the 10GS10 is to CYA just in case.  That pump can actually deadhead at 168 PSI, but if you subtract the 80’ to static level, 134 PSI is all the backpressure you will see before the CSV.

I would use one of the CSV1A valves with that pump.  It will work fine with a 44 gallon tank, but it would work just fine with a 4.5 gallon tank as well.  The Pside-Kick kit comes with a CSV1A, a 4.5 gallon tank, pressure switch, gauge, pressure relief valve, wall mount brackets, even a roll of Teflon tape.  This kit sells for $399.00, which is probably less than the 44 gallon tank itself.

I can appreciate the pump man only using CSV’s to solve his problems.  But if he used a CSV on every system, he wouldn’t be having those problems to begin with.

Those prices sound reasonable.  But it would save you about 500 bucks to use the Pside-Kick kit instead of the 44 gallon tank.  If you want to add the CSV1A to the 44 gallon tank system, the CSV by itself is $206.00.  I would recommend the CSV either way, as that 44 gallon tank really only holds about 12 gallons of water, and the pump will still cycle a lot unless you have the CSV.

[kirkdj]

I kinda thought someone would tell me that the pump was overkill..........I thought the 3/4 HP was plenty.........but when your pump guy is telling you trust me I been in the business 25 yrs.....bla bla bla.........sometimes you just can't argue with someone who thinks they know everything and when they see pump rate charts from a manufacturer, but they still think they know more about how the pump will operate in the field......so I gave up trying to get my point to the guy....I guess we will see.

I figured that the larger tank and having some draw down will cut down on pump cycles, even if I add the CSV later ....having constant 50 gpm pressure is not real important to me most of the time, it is nice though during a long shower........... I  also figured a heavier pump may get me more years of service...........I will wait until they get it set up after construction, I'm sure the pump cycle will be too short and then I'll get the CSV..........I'll have them pipe it up correctly via the online instructions so that all I'll have to do is cut the line and add the CSV......

I'm so glad I found the CSV page online.....it solves so many problems

[kirkdj]

One other thing............this pump has an 1.25" discharge............does that mean these guys should be running a 1.25" line all the way to the house?  or can it be reduced to maybe 1"?
what is the rule of thumb for the industry here?  never reduce the pipe size because it reduces the pumps designed flow rates?

[Cary Austin]

A larger pump means it will cycle more, so unless you solve this problem with a CSV, the larger pump will not last as long as the smaller pump.

The pipe size is all about distance.  1" PVC will hace 15 PSI loss per 100'.  1 1/4" PVC will only have 1 PSI loss per 100'.  If you are only going 50', 1" pipe would be OK.  Any further, and you well is deeper than that by itself, and you will start to loose flow and pressure in the smaller pipe.

[kirkdj]

One question on how the CSV's work is once the tank draws down....pump comes on.........at this point the pump puts out at max gpm until the pressure reaches CSV set point (50 psi?), at that time it closes off some to allow preset flow (1gpm?) and cuts the pump off once water demand is off and the tank is back full again?  is this scenario correct?

[kirkdj]

Thanks for the advice.....I believe I would be better off with a CSV regardless of what size pump they put............but arguing with these guys is useless, they think the consumer knows nothing and they are the experts........then they throw the old "well I can put what you want, but if there are problems with it, then it's on you"  ......their trying to throw their warranty out the window because I modified their design.....lol

I will be so glad when this house is done!

[Cary Austin]

One question on how the CSV's work is once the tank draws down....pump comes on.........at this point the pump puts out at max gpm until the pressure reaches CSV set point (50 psi?), at that time it closes off some to allow preset flow (1gpm?) and cuts the pump off once water demand is off and the tank is back full again?  is this scenario correct?

This is all correct except if you are still using water when the pressure reaches the setting of the CSV, then the CSV moves to match whatever flow rate you are using, and stays that way for as long as you continue to use water.  It only goes to 1 GPM to fill the tank when you have turned off all water faucets.

[Cary Austin]

Thanks for the advice.....I believe I would be better off with a CSV regardless of what size pump they put............but arguing with these guys is useless, they think the consumer knows nothing and they are the experts........then they throw the old "well I can put what you want, but if there are problems with it, then it's on you"  ......their trying to throw their warranty out the window because I modified their design.....lol

I will be so glad when this house is done!

I built a house a few years ago.  Dealing with contractors can be a pain.  I had already designed and built the water system myself, and I ended up doing the Heat Pump as well because the contractor didn’t know how to do it.  He tried to act like he knew what he was doing, but he said a couple of things I knew to be totally incorrect.  So I just studied everything and did it myself.  Turned out really good.

You can always add the CSV later.  It will even be good for you to experience the old style 40/60 on/off system before you add the CSV and see how good constant pressure can be.  It is funny that they would disallow a warranty because of a CSV, because the CSV is the reason you will never need any warranty work.

I don’t blame these pump installers.  They are just passing on what they have been told by the pump manufacturers.  Manufacturers spend millions wining, dining, and taking these installers on cruises and other things.  Selling VFD’s and pressure tank only systems that shorten the life of pumps is the way they get the millions to spend.  Manufacturers know the installer will get the blame, and installers who don’t educate themselves deserve to do lots of warranties and lose customers.

You are smart to do your own research.  But if you put in a CSV and your pump last several times longer than it was designed to last, how will pump manufacturers pay for all those cruises?

[kirkdj]

I saw first hand what your talking about dealing with this salesman.........when I asked their experience using CSV's they didn't have much good to say about them..."you don't need one of those" ...but they did want to push a variable speed pump.....they wanted to sell one of those though ........

even today I was telling the guy that set the pump and will be coming back to set the perm. tank later on that I wanted it piped a certain way so I can easily add a CSV if needed (I know I will need one).....his comment was oh your not gonna need one of those, it's not gonna short cycle.....if your using water it'll keep running" .................right   

[Cary Austin]

If you are using at least 14.5 GPM that pump will stay running.  But if you are using 14 GPM or anything less, the pump will cycle like crazy.  There are thousands of so-called “pump professionals” out there, but I can probably count on two hands the number that really understands how pumps work.  I could count on one hand the number that understands how a Variable Frequency Drive works.

Can’t say as I blame them though.  If I were still in the pump business, I would have a hard time selling you a CSV because it doesn’t cost much and makes the pump last for decades.  I could make a lot more profit on a VFD, and they don’t last long so I get to charge you more in a few months or a couple of years at the most.

The way some people see it is, if they get to come out and charge you for repairs or replacement of a VFD three times, that is the same as they would make from you in a lifetime with a standard pump system.  So what if you get mad and call someone else out the fourth time.  It doesn’t hurt to make a customer mad and lose them, if you have already gotten the same amount of money you would normally get from them in a lifetime.

The old saying, “Buyer Beware” has never been more important than when installing a pump system.

[kirkdj]

Cary
can all the CSV's be mounted vertically or horizontal?  also I was thinking of getting the CSV160 and you recommended the CSVIA .........my cutoff setting is now about 62-64 lbs. and I don't want to go higher than 65........does the CSV setting need to be a certain amount lower than the pump cut-off?  any water weeping is not a problem......

also my tank, pressure switch and this new CSV will be in my basement shop.........the well head a 100 ft. away has a 100 lb. pop-off valve on it.........is this pop-off going to be a problem?  wondering if back pressure with the CSV will pop it, is it located in the right spot, etc.?

Thanks....

[Cary Austin]

CSV’s smaller than 2” can be installed anyway you want.  The CSV160 is a really good valve as long as it is installed in a place where a small weep or drip from underneath won’t hurt anything.  They work fine when installed outside, in valve boxes, crawlspaces, or a well house with a dirt floor.  The best place to install one is inside the well casing.

The CSV160 is what I have at my house, but it is installed in the well.  I pulled the first one out after 12 years just to inspect it.  The second one has been in there for close to 9 years now.

How high you go with the pressure switch depends on what size tank you use.  With a little tank I would use a 50/70 pressure switch.  But of you use a larger tank you will want to use something like 45/65.
 
If you put the CSV in the well, the pop off valve can stay on the well head.  If you install the CSV outside the well, the pop off valve has to go after the CSV.