Author Topic: Any dis/advantage in keeping 32 gal hydro tank with CSV?  (Read 4180 times)

revmark

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Any dis/advantage in keeping 32 gal hydro tank with CSV?
« on: October 25, 2014, 05:47:06 PM »
Is there any advantage/disadvantages in keeping my 32 gal hydro tank if I add a CSV? Or is it required to replace with the 1.5/2 gal tank.

Cary Austin

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Re: Any dis/advantage in keeping 32 gal hydro tank with CSV?
« Reply #1 on: October 26, 2014, 04:45:21 PM »
The CSV will work with any size tank.  But in most cases there are no benefits to using a larger tank.  There are exceptions, as listed in the explanation below.

A big pressure tank is good for lots of little intermittent uses of water like ice makers and toilet flushes as an 80 gallon size tank will deliver 25 gallons before the pump must start.  Then if you have any long term uses of water like heat pumps or sprinklers, the CSV takes over after the pump starts and delivers constant pressure without letting the pump cycle on and off.  For many years I believed that a big pressure tank with a CSV was the best of both worlds.

However, I have learned that the CSV takes out so many cycles for long-term uses of water, a small tank causing a pump cycle every time a toilet is flushed by itself, doesn’t add up to much.  If the pool is filling, a sprinkler is running, or any other water is being used when a toilet is flushed, the CSV just gives a little more water for the toilet, but there is no extra cycle.

Seldom is a toilet flushed by itself.  Usually within a minute after flushing, the shower or a sink will be turned on.  Many times there will be two or three flushes within a minute of each other, then the shower or sink.  And that is just one persons use.  Multiple people in a house use water at the same time.  Someone in the kitchen runs the sink or the dishwasher.  Maybe the cloths washer has been on the entire time all this other stuff was happening.  As long as some water is being used anywhere in or outside the house, the CSV makes the water go right past the pressure tank, straight to the faucet that is open.  So it doesn’t matter if the tank holds 1 gallon or 25 gallons.

We have found that only systems that supply between 3 and 50 houses will benefit from a larger tank with the CSV.

  Number of houses                             Size of Pressure Tank
Less than 2 Houses                                        4.5 gallon
3- 10 Houses                                                  20 gallon
11-49 Houses                                                 80 gallon
50+ Houses                                                    40 gallon

Another counter intuitive thing about a CSV is, the more water a system uses, the smaller the tank can be.  When you have less than two houses with multiple people using sinks, toilets, showers, appliances, etc., and/or a heat pump, sprinkler system, which includes garden hoses, a 4.5 gallon tank is all you need.

However, there are times when a little larger pressure tank can be beneficial.  A large CSV controlled pump system can use an 80 gallon size pressure tank to supply an entire city of 40,000 people.  So there is no reason to use a tank any larger than 4.5 gallon size for one or two home. 

But when 3 to 50 homes are using the same pump system, a little larger tank can be a benefit.  With 3 to 50 homes there are times when no one is using water, but there are enough connections that a few leaking faucets could be supplied by a pressure tank, so the pump does not have to start to supply a few leaks.  In situations like these, a 20 to 80 gallon size pressure tank that holds 5 to 25 gallons of water would be good to use with a CSV.

To see the benefits of a smaller pressure tank see, “Why a Small Pressure Tank is All You Need with a CSV”, at this link.   http://cyclestopvalves.com/smf/index.php?topic=1953.0


See this graphic;          http://www.cyclestopvalves.com/simple/home.php

The Cycle Stop Valve system is on the top.  A conventional tank system is on the bottom.  If you turn on a sprinkler and let it run for hours, the pump runs constantly for hours as well.  During this time, if you flush a toilet, take a shower, or use any other water, the pump is already running and the CSV just opens up a little to give you enough extra for the added shower.  When you turn off the shower or the toilets fill and shut off, the CSV just resets to the amount of water needed to run the sprinkler.

The same thing happens when you turn on a shower.  As long as the shower is on, the pump is also on, so even 40/11 toilet flushes don’t add a single extra cycle to the pump.  In a house where there are multiple people, and/or multiple systems using water, the pump will be running a lot of the time, which is a good thing.  As long as somebody, or something, somewhere in or around the house is using water, the pump is already running.  Anything else turned on just gets the extra water it needs, without the pump having to cycle one extra time.

If you noticed the conventional pump system at the bottom of the graphic, it is just cycling on and off continually no matter where or how much water is being used. 

The Cycle Stop Valve just lets you use as much or as little water as you want without cycling the pump.  Water just goes from the pump, right past the tank, straight to the sprinklers, showers, wherever, because the CSV gives only the exact amount of water needed.


But don’t get me wrong.  The CSV will work with any size tank you prefer.  Some people think a larger pressure tank will give them a little stored water for times when the power is off.  This is true if you are lucky enough that the power goes off while the tank is full.  However, Murphy’s law says the 40/60 pressure switch will be at 41 PSI when the power goes off, and the largest tank available will be empty.  A couple of 5 gallon jugs in the closet is a more reliable way to have some water when the power goes off. 

revmark

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Re: Any dis/advantage in keeping 32 gal hydro tank with CSV?
« Reply #2 on: October 28, 2014, 08:19:05 PM »
Ok, so. All the work is done at the CSV. Not necessarily at the pump itself. But I want to be clear (it is quite and expense considering I just put well in last year).

With the CSV, the CSV adjusts the flow, not the pump motor as in varying the speed of the pump, etc., correct? It just comes on and pretty much stays on as long as there is a demand. Now what about ADDITIONAL demand? If the toilet is flushing and a clothes washer is running and I decide to take a shower, the CSV will increase the flow, correct? But the pump and motor stays running at the same speed.

Cary Austin

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Re: Any dis/advantage in keeping 32 gal hydro tank with CSV?
« Reply #3 on: October 29, 2014, 07:51:33 AM »
You are correct.  The CSV is just a valve that opens and closes like a ball valve.  It just has a spring to push it open and a diaphragm to push it closed. 

With a 40/60 pressure switch the tank is drained when a tap is opened and the pressure drops to 40 PSI starting the pump.  The adjustment bolt sets the spring tension in the CSV at 50 PSI.  So once the pump is started the CSV tries to maintain 50 PSI.  If you open more taps and the pressure drops to 49 PSI, the CSV opens delivering more water to get the pressure back up to 50.  If you close some taps and the pressure increases to 51 PSI, the diaphragm pushes the valve closed enough to bring the pressure back down to 50 PSI.

So no matter how many or how few taps you have open the CSV just keeps the pressure at 50 PSI, and doesn't let it build to 60 PSI which would make the pressure switch shut off the pump.  This entire time the water is just flowing right past the pressure tank, straight to the taps.  So it doesn't matter if you have a 1 gallon or a million gallon pressure tank.

When you turn off all the taps the CSV closes as much as it can at 51 PSI.  However, there is a 1 GPM bypass made on the valve seat so the valve just can't close less than 1 GPM.  And since all the taps are closed there is no place left for this 1 GPM to go except for the tank.  So now the water makes a right turn into the pressure tank and the pressure slowly increases to 60 PSI where the pressure switch is set to turn the pump off.

Now the tank is again full and the pump is off, waiting for someone to open a tap and start the process all over again.

The CSV has no control over the motor speed.  It simply opens or closes a valve to allow the correct amount of water through to match the amount being used.

The counter intuitive part of the CSV is that the motor amps drop when the flow from the pump is restricted with a valve, the same way the amps drop when the motor is slowed down with a complicated, computerized, expensive, short lived Variable Speed Drive (VFD or VSD).

Many people think that choking a pump back with a valve makes the amps go up and the pump to work harder, while slowing the motor speed would make the pumps work easier.  In fact just the opposite is true.  Choking the flow from a pump reduces the amps draw and makes the pumps work easier, while reducing the speed with a VFD is very hard on the pump/motor.

If you find a pump man or engineer who understands this, you have found a good one.  If they think a CSV is hard on a pump and a VFD makes pumps last longer, they don't know their butt from a hole in the ground, so find a new pump man or engineer.