CSV, Cycle Sensor and Tuning Minimal Run Time

[Cary Austin]

I agree something isn't right.  But I more think it is a pump problem than a CSV problem.  When you open enough water to get the pressure 5-10 PSI below the set pressure of the CSV, the CSV just turns into a piece of pipe and should not restrict the flow.  Is there anyway you can install a 160-200 PSI gauge before the CSV somewhere?  I am showing that when you open up 18 GPM, there should still be 95 PSI on the inlet side of the CSV, so the CSV has something to work with.  But if the pressure on the inlet side of the CSV is only about 58-60 at that point, then it is a pump or well problem.  Either the pump is not putting out as much as it should or the water level in the well is really at about 140' instead of 80'.

[hdude]

If the well was at 140, (pump is set at 140),  I'd be dry and the CycleSensor would trigger.  This morning, after cooling off and the GSHP running only 1/2 the time (15 mins on 15 minutes off), the PSI always is 30psi in the house at start and at the time it stops - the pressure stays the same continually.  During the day with the GSHP running continuously. it still provides water, allbeit at 30PSI.  The well report said that the well tested at 39 GPM from static of 70 to 130 (not enough info to determine if 39GPM was the actual replenishment rate).

I am going to try running the GSHP (8GPM) and opening enough hose bibs (4-5 each) to see how much water the well will produce before triggering the CycleSensor if it is going dry.  But yesterdays test showed that my amps went UP as I added demand. 

Putting on a gauge to measure the pump before the CSV is possible, but will be a least 1 week for me to get fittings, gauge and make the change.  I think it will be easier to replace the CSV and putting a "T" before it at the same time.  Can we arrange a replacement for a test?  I do have plans to purchase an additional CSV for my aunts well next door if we can get my system working right.

IIRC, I think I got constant pressure the first few days after installing the CSV, but this was before having better tools to monitor the system.

[Cary Austin]

I can send you a new gut pack (A-Cart) to drop in the CSV1A.  That will me much easier than replacing the valve body.  But I don't think it will change anything.  That is not a normal problem for a CSV.  If a CSV fails the pump just goes to cycling on and off.  A CSV causing a restriction would be very unusual.  I don't even know how it could even do that.

Also a 2HP pump should be pulling 12.8 to 13.2 amps when running a large flow like 18-20 GPM, while 10.1 amps is the max you have seen.  I still think it is a pump problem.  But call Corye at 806-885-4445 and she will send you a new gut pack (A-Cart) to try anyway.

[hdude]

Full Blown Test
I opened 10 bibs plus ran the GSHP.  Pressure @CSV dropped to 12PSI and amps went to 12.5.
Measured flow -
1.) 8GPM @ Tank
2.)12GPM @ distribution bib after tank T" (4 bibs - @4GPM+4GPM+3GPM+2GPM)
3.) 8 GPM  4 Hoses 100' from pump and close to house  (@ almost no pressure)
4.) 3 GPM  GSHP   (@almost no pressure)
Total =  30 GPM  @ 12PSI for 20 minutes   (which seems more than the pump should produce @ 150 and Zero PSI)

Continued after cutting off hoses and GSHP  Pressure @CSV went to 17PSI and Amps dropped to 12.0
1.)10 GPM @ Tank
2.)13GPM  @ distribution bib after tank T" (4 bibs - @4GPM+4GPM+3GPM+2GPM)
3.)  3GPM  Hose past house
Total =  26GPM @ 17psi for continuing for another 40 minutes.

I doubt it is the well is running dry and that it is pumping from 140' in the 8" casing.    The CSV is limiting the PSI (to 65max) so the system isn't cycling with pressure switch @ 50/70.  It just my system is dropping pressure as the flow increases.
I will call Corye.    Easier than replacing the valve at this time.      Thanks.

[Cary Austin]

While you are at it install a pressure gauge on the inlet side of the CSV.  That is the best way to troubleshoot a problem.  Had one similar to this the other day and it turned out to be a clogged filter between the CSV and pressure tank/switch/gauge.

[hdude]

I have a T" and 200PSI gauge on order.  I live in the sticks so it's going to be next week before I can change the plumbing on the well head and the CSV gut pack.

Now for new news.   Pressure into the house running the GSHP is about 10psi below what it was before I ran full flow test.  I get minimum pressure at the faucets when the GSHP runs.  With the GSHP running I still get serious pressure/flow outside the house.  (I believe I still have an issue with CSV delivering constant pressure - but admit it could be the new pump). I think I will dig up the piping to the house to check piping and valves and consider going all 1-1/4 to my distribution closet custting out two(2) - 3/4" PVC/PEX lines.  The only problem will be getting through the foundation for the 1-1/4.  I'll have to crawl under house within a house and between axles - no clearance to speak of. Done that before and it was not fun.

One question and I'll leave you alone till I change the plumbing and report back.  If it is the pump.  What Grundflos pump end would I want to purchase and have installed.  I'm pretty sure the new 2HP Franklin motor is OK. I'm pretty sure I can live with full 15GPM at 50+ PSI.  I am certain I have a good producing well. My father originally had a 30GPM 3HP pump installed, then 10 years later went to the 20GPM 2HP, which I have now replaced with a 20GPM 2HP.

[Cary Austin]

That L20 should be large enough, but something isn't right.   A Grundfos to replace that pump would be a 25S20-11.

[Cary Austin]

From hdude

Follow-UP for my post on CSV, Cycle Sensor and Tuning Minimal Run Time

My uncle and I ran various tests on my system trying to determine why the CSV and new pump were not providing constant pressure, much less adequate pressure when running 6-8gpm demand for my GSHP.  When running my GSHP using my aunt’s system, I got 40psi in the house but when using my new pump/CSV @60psi, I only got 25psi in the house.  We came to the conclusion that somehow with my pump, either I had an obstruction in my lines or that my house was being fed through a 3/4" supply line.  So I started digging at the gate valve that I used to turn on the (backup) system from my aunt’s house to mine.

1.)  The shutoff valve I thought was to my aunt's system - actually shut off the 1-1/4” lines from both my system and hers.
2.)  When both systems were shut off, somewhere within the 400' of 1-1/4 piping around my house and yard - a  ¾”  pipe fed back into the 1-1/4 line, just before the junction that supplies my house via two(2) ¾” lines. 

With this discovery (and a lot of digging) and doing some repair and plumbing changes - I now have more or less constant pressure into the house even when running my GSHP.   I now have my CSV set to 55psi pressure switch @50/70psi and I am getting 50psi in the house while running my GSHP. I only see 1 or 2 psi drop when turning on additional faucets or showers. 

Note – Before I moved into the house,  ¾” water supply lines were installed in 1978 and then new 1-1/4” lines were installed in 1994 when the well was dug.  I added an additional ¾” line to the house in 2012 of the 1-1/4 line after the shutoff.  I am now in the process of replacing the 3/4" lines with a 1-1/4” lines all the way into my household distribution closet (even if now I am getting great pressure and flow).  With monitoring, I can attest that the pump is only cycling about 50 times a day (due to GSHP cooling running almost continually during the heat) instead of an estimated 400 a day previously.

I do think I will be adding an additional 10 gallon psi-kick for various reasons, including the fast fill time (30-40 seconds) after flusing a toilet when the GSHP isn't running.

Just want to add, the Cary and his staff provided great support in helping me implement their products and then later to address my problems. I will be installing CycleStop products on my (backup) aunts pump and supply system later this summer.