Author Topic: Pump Reccomendation  (Read 15629 times)

ChrisNIA

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Pump Reccomendation
« on: July 13, 2013, 02:02:11 PM »
I am in the process of building a house and I am looking for a pump recommendation. The well has not been drilled yet (the drillers around here either charge to much or seem to only drill 1 well a month, the driller I am working with gave a quote of $21 a foot and said there are 2 wells he needs to drill before mine and will take a month to get to). I will be installing the pump and plumbing myself and am just looking to get ideas for now until I have the well drilled. We have a market garden and livestock and are looking to get at least 20 gpm. The wells in the area are between 200' to 300' feet deep with static water levels around 100'. I was originally looking at a Myers Rustler pump like the 2NFL102-20-P4. I am not sure if the Myers pumps use floating impellers or a standard thrust bearing though and I am looking for a pump that would be more efficient at various flow rates when using a cycle stop valve as water demand could vary from 2 gpm when showering to max flow when irrigating. Do you have any suggestions?

Cary Austin

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Re: Pump Reccomendation
« Reply #1 on: July 13, 2013, 07:35:46 PM »
As long as you use close to max flow when irrigating or using water or long periods of time, then how efficient the pump is during a shower isn’t going to make much difference.  Now if you have a 10 or 20 GPM pump, and you use a 3 GPM drip system or heat pump for many hours at a time, efficiency at low flow is important.

When efficiency at low flow is important, pumps with fixed stack impellers will use much less energy than floating stack impellers.  The Myers you mention is a floating stack impeller design, and the 10 GPM series won’t reduce in amperage when using low flow.  Meyers is a Pentair brand, and anything Pentair is the same.  Pentair sells under many different names.  Pentair, Sta-Rite, Myers, Berkekey, and I believe Water-Ace, just to name a few.

Goulds also sells pumps under other names like Red Jacket.  All the plastic impeller pumps that I know of have a floating stack design.  Some of them have better efficiency at low flow than others, and I really don’t know why this is so.

Now the fixed stack that I like the best for efficiency at low flow is the Grundfos.  The original Grundfos seems to do a little better than many of the Grundfos copies out there.  Grundfos copies include almost any of the pumps with Stainless Steel impellers.  These would include Unitra, SMP, National, Wilo, annd many others.  I also think Pentair now makes a SS impeller pump as well.

Most Grundfos pumps and copies thereof will reduce in amperage about 50% at low flow rates.  Some of the plastic impeller designs will only reduce 20 to 30%, and some like the 10 GPM Pentail will not reduce in amperage at all.

Things like showers and any water use in the house is not running for long enough for efficiency to make much difference.  But again, any long term use of low flow rates can benefit from a pump that is more efficient at low flow rates.

ChrisNIA

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Re: Pump Reccomendation
« Reply #2 on: August 14, 2013, 06:58:17 PM »
Ok, the well has been drilled. They went down 265' and it is a 6" casing down 197', static water level is at 46'. The driller said they measured 20 gpm at 120' and recommended to set the pump there. I intend to set the pump on 1.25' IPS 200 PSI poly at around 140' since the pump wire comes in 150' length and I have a 300' roll of the poly pipe. I also plan to use extra long FIP to poly adapters so I can triple clamp the poly pipe. I do not intend to run a torque arrestor as I have heard they can cause a lot of problems if and when the pump needs pulled. I do plan to run a wire spacer or two. This pump will be primarily for household use most of the year plus irrigation of a large garden (1 to 2 acres) and water for our livestock during the summer. As such most of the use will be under 10 gpm but I would like at least 20 gpm when irrigating (2 drip zones at a time at about 10 gpm per zone).  I am looking to set the water pressure at 55-60 PSI for the house and will be using a CSV1W and a 20 gallon bladder tank. Doing the math for household use I am getting a head of about 215 ft H2O (60 PSI= about 150 ft H2O + 50 ft H2O static water level + 15 ft H2O loss in 250 ft of 1.25" poly pipe) (I rounded up to make the math easier and to account for possible variations).  For irrigation it will be primarily drip at a head of 81 ft H2O (10 PSI = about 25 ft H2O + 50 ft H2O static water level + 21 ft H2O loss in 350' of 1.25 poly pipe). So if my math is correct I am looking for a pump that can do around 10 gpm at 215 ft H2O and at least 20 gpm at 80 ft H2O. I may also use a moving sprinkler to water some pasture in future.  I am trying to be energy efficient in my selection (ex. a 1.5 hp pump would meet both needs but would need be throttled back most of the time and thus consuming more energy then necessary) since a large part of the time I will need 10 gpm or less. I understand a 2 pump system would be the most efficient but for now cost constraints are limiting me to a 1 pump system. I am currently looking at a 1 hp Betta Flo pump (BF-2008) or a 1 hp Myers Rustler pump (2NFL102-20-P4). Would one be better then the other?  Is the Betta Flo a floating or fixed stack impeller? Price wise the Betta Flo is a bit more expensive than the Myers Rustler ($409.00 vs $485.00) but if the Betta Flo would be a better pump and more efficient I have no problem spending a bit more up front. I would like to run the smallest hp pump that will work but looking at most pump curves it appears 1 hp would be the smallest that will meet 10 gpm at 215 ft H2O (even the 1/2 hp Betta Flo is capable of more than 20 gpm at 80 ft H2O but appears to max out at 150 ft H2O).
Thank you, Chris

Cary Austin

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Re: Pump Reccomendation
« Reply #3 on: August 15, 2013, 07:33:23 AM »
You will need a pump that can do 50 PSI plus the 120' of lift for a total head of 235' or better.  I see a 1.5 HP that can do 18 GPM, but you would need a 2 HP to get 20 GPM.  You run the system at 40/60 PSI and just put pressure reducers on the drip lines.  Also unless you are installing it in the well casing, the CSV1A would be a better choice.  You can get the CSV1A in the Pside-Kick kit which comes with a 4.5 gallon tank and everything you need for $399. 

ChrisNIA

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Re: Pump Reccomendation
« Reply #4 on: August 15, 2013, 08:36:54 PM »
At 60 PSI I will only need a max of 10 gpm for household use, the static water level is at 46' which I rounded to 50' and then 15' of head for loss in the pipe would be 10 gpm at 215' of head. I do not plan to irrigate and shower at the same time. For irrigation use the drip tape only needs 10 PSI so for irrigation I would like 20 gpm at 80' of head. Looking at the BF-2008 chart it puts out 10 gpm at 230' and 20 gpm at 190'. That should give me 51 PSI at 20 gpm which will be more than enough for irrigating. The Myers pump would give 240' at 10 gpm and 160' at 20 gpm so it would appear either pump would be sufficient with the Betta Flo giving a few more PSI at 20 gpm. So, would one pump be better then the other quality wise or efficiency wise? You said the Myers pump has a floating impeller stack, what about the Betta Flo? Is Betta Flo just another Pentair brand? I looked for information on the Grundfos and the others you mentioned but there doesn't seem to be any online retailers for those brands, or at least when I search all I seem to find are the Pentair brands of pumps.

Cary Austin

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Re: Pump Reccomendation
« Reply #5 on: August 16, 2013, 07:54:54 AM »
static water level is at 46'. The driller said they measured 20 gpm at 120' and recommended to set the pump there.

Your lift from the well should be figured from at least 120'.  It will only be at 46' static until some water is being used.  120' lift plus (50PSI or 115') for the pressure you need means a total head of 235' before adding in any friction loss.  The beauty of the CSV is that it allows you to install as large a pump as you think you may need, yet still operate like a small pump anytime without hurting anything.  However, the CSV can't make a pump produce MORE water.  So you have to start with a pump that is large enough for the worst case scenarios. 

The Pentair pump won't drop in amps very much.  The Betta Flow is good ig it has the Stainless Steel impellers, but if it is plastic, it is no better than any others.

ChrisNIA

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Re: Pump Reccomendation
« Reply #6 on: August 16, 2013, 09:43:51 PM »
I am starting to think I am on a snip hunt looking for a pump with fixed stack impellers. I found the Betta Flo is made by National but has "Impellers and diffusers are glass filled Noryl." Even the Grundfos are plastic impellers as described on there web site "The SQ/SQE pump design uses "floating" impellers. Each impeller has its own tungsten carbide/ceramic bearing." It would appear every manufacturer I can find information for is now using floating impellers. Are there any pump models that still use a fixed stack impeller?

Cary Austin

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Re: Pump Reccomendation
« Reply #7 on: August 17, 2013, 04:29:00 PM »
The SQ/SQE is the only Grundfos pump with plastic impellers.  The standard S series 4” models all have stainless steel impellers that are fixed to the shaft.  National makes a copy of the Grundfos that has SS impellers.  There are many similar pumps made under names like Unitra, Hydroflo, SMP, Wilo, etc.

ChrisNIA

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Re: Pump Reccomendation
« Reply #8 on: August 19, 2013, 11:34:19 PM »
Ok, I found some more information on Grundfos well pumps (there website is not very user friendly). I am looking at either the 16S15-14 or the 25S15-9. The 16S15-14 will do 18.2 gpm at 50 psi at 120' and 20 gpm at 30 psi at 120'. The 25S15-9 will do 12.3 gpm at 50 psi at 120' and 23.7 gpm at 30 psi at 120'. I am leaning more towards the 16S15-14 as it will put out more pressure which will be useful if I use impact sprinklers on the pasture or yard(gardens will be all drip tape). Interestingly the 25S15-9 has a lower list price then the 16S15-14, I would assume because it uses the same motor and fewer stages. So my plan will be to use the 16S15-14 set at 140' on 1.25" 200 PSI poly pipe with a CSV1W and a 20 gallon tank. (I already have the pipe, csv and the tank). Earlier you said the CSV1A would be better then the CSV1W. What are the differences and what would make one better then the other in this situation?

Cary Austin

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Re: Pump Reccomendation
« Reply #9 on: August 20, 2013, 07:47:49 AM »
The 16S15 is a good pump.  I have installed thousands of them.  The CSV1W is fine at 50 PSI, but if you want more pressure the CSV1A is more adjustable.

ChrisNIA

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Re: Pump Reccomendation
« Reply #10 on: August 20, 2013, 10:18:45 PM »
On the product information page it says the CSV1W is adjustable between 50-65 PSI. Is this not correct?
For the 16S15-14 I have found a few sources. One is a dot com for $655 including shipping and would be the Grundfos pump and Grundfos motor. The other is a locale contractor supplier for $694 plus tax and would be the Grundfos pump end and a Franklin motor. Which motor would be better, the Grundfos or the Franklin? Also, I have heard some people have had problems getting there pumps warrantied through Grundfos if purchased through a dot com. Any truth to this? The locale supplier is listed on the Grundfos website as an authorized retailer. While I do not expect to have any problems it never hurts to consider all possibilities.

ChrisNIA

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Re: Pump Reccomendation
« Reply #11 on: August 20, 2013, 11:01:57 PM »
Another question. Grundfos and Franklin Electric both recommend a minimum flow of 13 gpm when used in a 6" well to cool the motor. Since there will be extended periods of lower flow (say 3-4 gpm while showering) would installing the pump in a 4" sleeve be a good idea? In a 4" well the minimum flow for adequate cooling would be 1.2 gpm.

Cary Austin

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Re: Pump Reccomendation
« Reply #12 on: August 21, 2013, 07:47:00 AM »
On the product information page it says the CSV1W is adjustable between 50-65 PSI. Is this not correct?
For the 16S15-14 I have found a few sources. One is a dot com for $655 including shipping and would be the Grundfos pump and Grundfos motor. The other is a locale contractor supplier for $694 plus tax and would be the Grundfos pump end and a Franklin motor. Which motor would be better, the Grundfos or the Franklin? Also, I have heard some people have had problems getting there pumps warrantied through Grundfos if purchased through a dot com. Any truth to this? The locale supplier is listed on the Grundfos website as an authorized retailer. While I do not expect to have any problems it never hurts to consider all possibilities.

The CSV1W is adjustable to 65 PSI, but the higher you go from 50 PSI, the more resistance you get from that valve.  That is not the case with the CSV1A as it has more room for a longer spring, and works much better when adjusted above 50 PSI than the CSV1W.

Grundfos pump with a Frankin motor would be my choice.  The best way to get anything warranted is to work through a supplier who sells a lot and therefore has some clout with the manufacturer.

Cary Austin

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Re: Pump Reccomendation
« Reply #13 on: August 21, 2013, 07:55:10 AM »
Another question. Grundfos and Franklin Electric both recommend a minimum flow of 13 gpm when used in a 6" well to cool the motor. Since there will be extended periods of lower flow (say 3-4 gpm while showering) would installing the pump in a 4" sleeve be a good idea? In a 4" well the minimum flow for adequate cooling would be 1.2 gpm.

When using a CSV the standard minimum flow for motor cooling is no longer applicable.  The CSV reduces the amp draw of the motor.  This de-rates the motor so that it is even capable of pumping hot water without any problems.  So it takes very little cool water to prevent overheating of a de-rated motor.  Although a CSV has a minimum of 1 GPM, the minimum cooing flow required for a de-rated motor is only 2/10’s of a GPM. 

However, it is important that the minimum 1 GPM flow past the motor before entering the pump, to keep the motor cool.  Therefore a “sleeve”, “shroud”, or “flow inducer” is important, especially when installing the pump is a cistern tank or large body of water.

ChrisNIA

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Re: Pump Reccomendation
« Reply #14 on: August 28, 2013, 10:38:50 AM »
Picked up the pump and motor the other day. They came in two separate boxes so I will need to put them together. Looks pretty straight forward. Anything I should be aware of prior to bolting them together?