Author Topic: What type of CSV should I use for each pump and how should I set them up?  (Read 6358 times)

BowlesGarden

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 3
    • View Profile
Here is the set up.  Two separate well and pump systems both feeding pressure to one large underground network of 2” PVC pipe with 15+ yard hydrants and a 60 zone computer controlled irrigation system.  We are experiencing the problem of going through pumps on well # 1 rather quickly in my opinion.  The 33GS50 in the well now is shot I think.  It is the 4th pump since 2003.  I am not interested in diagnosing the broken pump in the well but more interested in coming up with a better solution to our setup.  I believe the pump is killing itself cycling on and off during the medium usage.

Our water usage is medium to high.  It is not uncommon for 1-4 hydrants to be on all day in the summer.  One hydrant can be 5-7gpm.  4 or 5 hydrants is usually the tipping point of pressure loss  The irrigation runs in the evening for a couple hours with water usage in the 1-30 gpm range.

The pump in well #1 is set as primary.  The pressure readings below are what I observed on the guage during cycling.

I also have a question as to placement of CSV in Well #1.  Because the pipe Tee's out of the well , left goes to the pressure tank and dead ends..... right goes to the filters and end usage.  My guess is because the water flow on the left side is bidirectional the CSV can not go there.  And now that I am thinking about it the water may be bidirectional through the right side from time to time when Well pump # 1 is offline and pump 2 pushes water into diaphram tank 1. 

Well # 1 (Primary Pump)

Submersible Goulds 33GS50  5 HP Installed July 2012
 230v Single Phase (3 wire and a ground)
300’ of 8 awg from control box to pump
725 feet deep well
depth of water 50’
depth of pump 280’
50 gpm recovery rate
well casing 6”
Well drilled between 15 and 20 years ago
Diaphram Tank 119 gallon
Pressure switch setting on 52psi off 75psi
Dual VU-Flow filters
1 ¼ “ out of the well then T, half to filters and underground, half to pressure tank

Well # 2

Submersible Goulds 18GS30 3HP Installed Dec 2007
230v Single Phase (3 wire and a ground)
1000’ 8” well
depth of water 20’
depth of pump 360’
20 gpm recovery rate
Well drilled Dec 2007
Diaphram Tank Champion CH10050
Pressure switch setting on 55psi off 72psi
Dual Vu-Flow filters
1 ¼” out of the well, then filters, then T to pressure tank and underground to 2”

Cary Austin

  • Inventor, Owner, Chief Cook and Bottle Washer
  • Administrator
  • Newbie
  • *****
  • Posts: 1586
    • View Profile
    • http://www.cyclestopvalves.com
Thanks for asking such good questions on our forum.  I will look up the pump curves and help you design a system that will do everything you want and last a long time.  We would have more options if the CSV's did not have to fit in the well.  Is there anyway you could come off the top of the well with a CSV, and then tee off in two directions to the house and pressure tank?

Also, you have a lot of good info, do you also happen to know the pumping level in the well?
« Last Edit: October 03, 2013, 07:56:05 PM by Cary Austin »

BowlesGarden

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 3
    • View Profile
No,  I do not know the pumping level in the well.

 It would be possible to put the valve at the well head with some reconfiguration of the plumbing.  Well #1 is the one without the diaphram tank in the picture.  The green electrical tape in this picture identifies the line to pressure tank and control box.  As you can see there is not much room between the well head and the Tee.  The brass check valve is hogging all the real estate here. 

Well pump #1

<a href="http://s1291.photobucket.com/user/bowles_barn/media/DSCN0309_zps8dcf4131.jpg.html" target="_blank"><img src="http://i1291.photobucket.com/albums/b548/bowles_barn/DSCN0309_zps8dcf4131.jpg" border="0" alt=" photo DSCN0309_zps8dcf4131.jpg"/></a>


<a href="http://s1291.photobucket.com/user/bowles_barn/media/DSCN0308_zps370821be.jpg.html" target="_blank"><img src="http://i1291.photobucket.com/albums/b548/bowles_barn/DSCN0308_zps370821be.jpg" border="0" alt=" photo DSCN0308_zps370821be.jpg"/></a>


 Well Pump #2 is the one with the blue tank.  In the picture of well pump #2 I put  two stripes of green electrical tape where I think the CSV can go.  That is assuming that it can me oriented in a verticle fashion.  Does a CSV have to be mounted horizontal?

<a href="http://s1291.photobucket.com/user/bowles_barn/media/DSCN0307_zpsb9138f3f.jpg.html" target="_blank"><img src="http://i1291.photobucket.com/albums/b548/bowles_barn/DSCN0307_zpsb9138f3f.jpg" border="0" alt=" photo DSCN0307_zpsb9138f3f.jpg"/></a>



Cary Austin

  • Inventor, Owner, Chief Cook and Bottle Washer
  • Administrator
  • Newbie
  • *****
  • Posts: 1586
    • View Profile
    • http://www.cyclestopvalves.com
After looking at pictures and checking the pump curves, this is what I think.  It would be very helpful to know the pumping level of each well.  With such high static water levels and such good recovery rates for each well, I doubt that the water level is drawing down very much even when pumping full flow.  No matter how deep the pumps are set, they only lift from the actual water level.  So if the water level in the well doesn’t pull down very much, both of those pumps are way oversized.  This makes the pumps run in an up-thrust condition, which could be part of the problem.

I would test the pumping level in the well that still has a good pump, then consider the other well to have about the same pumping level.  If the pumping level doesn’t pull down more than I think it will, you can probably reduce the size of those pumps by 50%.  The smaller pumps would be less expensive to replace when needed, save a lot of energy, and still pump the same amount of water.

Also the check valves on each wellhead need to be removed.  The pumps must have check valves on them at the bottom of the well, and those are the only check valves you need in the system.  The check valves at the top of each well can cause water hammer, which could also be big part of your problem, as this water hammer can go down and shatter the down thrust bearings in the motors.  The best place to install a CSV is where the check valves are, so remove the checks and install CSV’s in these locations.

Without changing the size of pumps, the high static levels and deep set pumps mean you will respectively have 251 PSI and 264 PSI back pressure before the CSV’s.  You will need to use a CSV2W1.25T 50/120 Cycle Stop Valves on each well.  The CSV’s will need to be fitted with what we call a “red seat” to be able to handle the high differential pressures.  I would run the 5HP as pump #2, set the CSV to 65 PSI with a 50/70  pressure switch.  Then I would run the 3HP as pump #1, and set the CSV at 70 PSI with a 55/75 pressure switch. 

These CSV2W valves will have a minimum flow of 5 GPM each.  So it would be best to always use more than 5 GPM when irrigating.  But with a large tank or two, flow rates of less than 5 GPM will still not cycle the pump very fast and will work fine.  If you could change the 3HP pump to a 2HP, we could do a minimum flow of 1 GPM, so neither pump will cycle as long as you use more than 1 GPM.

If you test the pumping levels and change out the pumps accordingly, we could use different CSV’s, have less differential pressure, and work at lower flow rates without cycling the pumps.  If you stay with the same pumps, the special made CSV2W’s are the best for that application.  These CSV’s will eliminate the pumps being destroyed by cycling.  The additional backpressure from the CSV’s will keep the pumps form being destroyed by up-thrust.  Removing the above ground check valves that are not needed will eliminate the water hammer, which could be destroying the down-thrust bearings.

Adding the CSV’s will give your pumps a good long life.  Checking the pumping levels and sizing the pumps accordingly could greatly reduce your electric bill.

BowlesGarden

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 3
    • View Profile
Spring has come and now the rush is on to complete this project.  Please excuse the long delay.

I have some questions. 

1.  There is a difference in elevation of 10 feet between the 2 setups.  Will the 4.33 of PSI of pressure difference between the two pressure switches affect the setup?  My guess is yes.  With the CSV and pressure switches set up with only off 5 PSI of difference in your calculations, and the difference in elevation are we back to equal?

Note:  The 3HP Pump setup is 10 feet below the 5hp pump setup.

2.  If I understand correctly, the reason to make the 3HP as the primary pump is for its ability to handle the lower flow demand.  I completely agree with this approach.

3.  Can the CSV be mounted in a verticle fashion or is the valve required to be mounted horizontally.  I ask this because of space concerns in the well "rock"

4.  Will I be able to tweak the valve little by little to get the exact desired results or does the valve only adjust in increments of 5psi.  I think this question relates to question #1

Cary,  I also wanted to thank you for all the help you have given me.  I have learned a lot reading your posts here and elsewhere. 

Cary Austin

  • Inventor, Owner, Chief Cook and Bottle Washer
  • Administrator
  • Newbie
  • *****
  • Posts: 1586
    • View Profile
    • http://www.cyclestopvalves.com
Spring has come and now the rush is on to complete this project.  Please excuse the long delay.

I have some questions. 

1.  There is a difference in elevation of 10 feet between the 2 setups.  Will the 4.33 of PSI of pressure difference between the two pressure switches affect the setup?  My guess is yes.  With the CSV and pressure switches set up with only off 5 PSI of difference in your calculations, and the difference in elevation are we back to equal?
Note:  The 3HP Pump setup is 10 feet below the 5hp pump setup.

You just set the lower pump 4 PSI higher to make up the difference.

2.  If I understand correctly, the reason to make the 3HP as the primary pump is for its ability to handle the lower flow demand.  I completely agree with this approach.

Yes it is usually more efficient to have the smallest pump come on first.

3.  Can the CSV be mounted in a verticle fashion or is the valve required to be mounted horizontally.  I ask this because of space concerns in the well "rock"

The CSV2W valves can be installed in any position.  You may not want to put the CSV after the filters as that will put a lot of pressure on the filter housings.

4.  Will I be able to tweak the valve little by little to get the exact desired results or does the valve only adjust in increments of 5psi.  I think this question relates to question #1

You can set the CSV’s to any pressure you want.  It is usually not that critical but they can be sensitive to less than 1 PSI.