Messages

1

Valve Tech / Re: CSV1A and low flow rate

« on: July 26, 2022, 08:45:22 PM »

Ok, good info, thanks, Cary!  I'll probably leave it bypassed/gutted for now and see how it does.  It still reaches the switch cutoff of 74 psi easily with normal demand flow, but I might look for a local pump repair business that could rebuild the wet end of the pump at some point.  It will be easy enough to put the CSV1A back into service then.

 

2

Valve Tech / Re: CSV1A and low flow rate

« on: July 26, 2022, 11:48:13 AM »

There is something wrong with the CSV1A valve.  This morning I took it apart, put only the diaphragm and a flat sheet metal disk on top of it and reassembled.  The pump is pushing 12-14 gpm out the tank drain spigot through a 3/4" 50' garden hose, while holding 64 psi!  It's like a mini-fire hose!

So, good news that it's not the pump, plumbing or valve housing.  I've attached some pictures of the valve body, in case you can spot a problem.  It seems to me that the 1/8" gap isn't sufficient to pass up to 25 gpm, but I couldn't get it to open any more than that.

3

Valve Tech / Re: CSV1A and low flow rate

« on: July 25, 2022, 08:20:29 PM »

The pump is a 15SQE-250 1HP.  I measured the amperage today while it was running at max - 7.8 amps.  The literature from Grundfos says 7.6 amps max for that pump, so it's pretty close.

I noticed that the adjusting bolt on the CSV1A was feeling rather rough while turning, so I disassembled it again and found that the bolt was damaged.  After replacing it with another 3/8-16 bolt and new nuts, it still doesn't feel "right".  Should the diaphragm assembly be movable by hand when the top bolt (on the assembly, not the adjusting bolt) is tight?  I can only get any movement of the white valve body by hand when the bolt is loosened.

4

Valve Tech / Re: CSV1A and low flow rate

« on: July 24, 2022, 08:57:53 PM »

Thanks for the quick reply, Cary!  The well does produce some fine sand - the 100 micron flush-able filter catches an ounce or so in a couple months, so it's likely the impellers are wearing down.  I'll run those tests you suggested this week.

Any recommended 4" pump brands/models to look for if the Grundfos is worn out? 

5

Valve Tech / CSV1A and low flow rate

« on: July 23, 2022, 08:57:13 PM »

I've had a CSV1A installed for ~ 7 years and it's been great!  It replaced the CU301 controller and pressure transducer on our 18 year old Grundfos SQE pump, turning it into an SQ pump I guess.

At the 80' pumping depth on our 130' well, that pump has been able to supply over 20 gpm at whatever pressure was asked of it...until lately.  Now if a couple sprinklers are running concurrently, the flow rate is noticeably lower than in years past and the pump is unable to maintain the pressure set on the CSV1A.  If I hook a hose up to the 3/4" spigot near the pressure tank and turn it on full, the pressure will drop enough to empty the tank and kick off the Square D M4 pressure switch.

I disassembled the CSV1A a couple days ago and it looked fine - no holes in the diaphragm, no sand packed into any of the openings, just a little iron staining that wiped off easily. It has no trouble maintaining a pressure for a low flow like a shower or two, just at higher flow rates.

Is there any type of failure in a CSV1A that would cause these symptoms?  My guess is it is not the valve, but would like to be sure before calling in the well servicing company.  Would it be possible to temporarily remove the guts of the valve and replace it with an o-ring and flat disk of sheet metal that the pressure adjusting spring and cage would hold in place?

6

Pumps, Wells, Tanks, Controls / Re: Grundfos CU301 retired

« on: September 01, 2015, 10:36:12 AM »

I've seen that guy's comments...I wouldn't believe a thing he says!!! 

Since I never got a standby amperage reading, the 40w number I saw on the R100 remote is still questionable to me.  Not saying it isn't right, but I'd hate to be the source of misinformation if it's wrong.

You really need an RMS meter to check for power consumption on a system like that.  But here is a quote from another guy who purchase one of the little remotes that can track all that information.  I think it is pretty obvious that the SQE/CU301 unit is using about 40 watts when in standby mode.

Being somewhat of a techno nerd, I acquired an R100 remote a few years ago to be able to read the data stored in the pump.  As of 8/10/2015, here are the numbers reported by the system, with a few estimates of my own:

Power Consumption (kWh):  1,088*
Number of Starts:  176,471
Operating Hours:  1,016
Starts Per Op. Hr.:  173.7
Starts Per Day:  41.5  (4,248 days between 12/23/2003 and 8/10/2015)
kWh Per Day:  0.26

Estimated Gallons Pumped:  609,600   
Estimated Gallons Per Start:  3.5   
Estimated Gallons Per Day:  143.5

* The R100 reports a 40W load, when the pump is off.  If that is accurate, then an additional 4,000+ kWh of electricity were used in standby mode.  I need to measure that with amp meter to verify.  Pretty sad if true.

7

Pumps, Wells, Tanks, Controls / Re: Grundfos CU301 retired

« on: August 31, 2015, 09:42:12 PM »

I never was able to get an amp reading on the CU301 when it was installed.  If I did it now, it would only be what the CU301 was using and not anything that the SQE was using in standby mode.

The 40w reading that I saw before might only be a default lowest value, rather than an actual reading.  I never saw it deviate from that number when the pump wasn't running.  That seems like an awful large amperage draw just to do some powerline communication.  Regardless, I'm glad to see it replaced.

8

Pumps, Wells, Tanks, Controls / Re: Grundfos CU301 retired

« on: August 31, 2015, 11:57:26 AM »

Thanks again, Cary.  Somehow I had the idea that the valve was starting out at a 1 gpm setting from pump start.  Thanks for taking the time to clear up my confusion.

9

Pumps, Wells, Tanks, Controls / Re: Grundfos CU301 retired

« on: August 31, 2015, 08:19:06 AM »

Thanks for the reply, Cary.  The run time of 30 seconds when demand is removed makes sense to me after thinking about it more - the tank itself is seen as demand until it, too, reaches the set-point of 70 psi on the CSV1A.  It only has to continue filling from 70-75 when the other demands stop.

The second situation is the one that has me somewhat flummoxed - tank is completely empty and no demand exists other than the tank.  The 45 second refill in that situation means an avg flow rate of 3.3 gpm.  Is the 1 gpm fill rate based on a certain pressure differential through the valve, rather than any type of metering action to maintain an absolute 1gpm flow rate?  If so, then I am assuming that our ~ 100 psi differential after pump startup must be higher than that used to estimate a 1 gpm fill rate.

I don't think it's a problem in either situation.  We might get an occasional extra cycle with the shorter fill time, but as you said, I could always back down the CSV1A set-point or bump up the cutoff setting on the switch, or both.

The valve has been working great!  I don't sense any difference in functionality between it and the CU301 it replaced, though I'm confident it will prolong the life of the pump and save a lot of money by eliminating the parasitic electric load.

10

Pumps, Wells, Tanks, Controls / Re: Grundfos CU301 retired

« on: August 29, 2015, 10:42:25 PM »

I have a followup question regarding tank fill time.  When the demand has stopped, our pump only runs for about 30 seconds before shutoff pressure has been reached.  It is a 20 gallon diaphragm tank and the air pressure is ~ 56 psi.

The draw-down is 2.5 gallons, so I was expecting a 2.5 minute refill at 1 gpm.  The refill time from pump start (if I shut off the demand right away) is about 45 seconds.

Any ideas why the tank refill time is so short?  Thanks.

11

Pumps, Wells, Tanks, Controls / Grundfos CU301 retired

« on: August 26, 2015, 10:01:17 PM »

I installed a new CSV1A and pressure switch today and retired the still (surprisingly) working CU301 V2 from 2003.  I bought a 60/80 switch and adjusted it to 60/75 and set the CSV1A to 70.  Everything is working as advertised.

For my own curiosity, I installed a pressure gauge upstream of the CSV1A to see what the back pressure was during pump running.  I was seeing around 155 psi.  Is that a fairly normal reading?  Kind of surprised that our 12 year old  SQE 15-250 (though I guess it's really just an SQ now) can produce that much pressure.

An interesting side note about the switch I bought:  It has a lever with labels Auto -> Start ->  Off.  Took me a while to discover that it would not run in Auto with less than 10 psi at the switch.  It's apparently a safety in case the well pipe completely ruptures.  To start from an empty pressure tank, one has to lift the switch to the Start setting to manually close the contacts until the pump builds the needed pressure for it to switch normally.

12

Pumps, Wells, Tanks, Controls / Re: Pressure switch on-off range

« on: August 12, 2015, 04:45:34 PM »

Thanks, Cary.

I was thinking of using a pressure switch with two adjustment nuts.  From what I've read, the large nut moves the entire range, but keeps the spread.  The small nut adjusts the differential by raising or lowering just the cut-out setting.  So theoretically, I could buy a 60/80, then use the small nut to lower it to a 60/70.

In any case, I'd probably buy one that's in the ballpark and try it out to see if the wait time for constant pressure is even noticeable, before monkeying with it.

We have a Laing Autocirc pump to maintain hot water, so it's usually only 7-8 seconds of wait time for the shower to get warm enough to use.  Saves on time and water, but wastes a bit of electricity and gas.  I call it a wash...pun intended.

13

Pumps, Wells, Tanks, Controls / Pressure switch on-off range

« on: August 12, 2015, 04:04:51 PM »

All the factory presets I've seen are a spread of 20 psi - 20/40, 30/50, 40/60, etc.  If I went to a CSV1A, would there be a problem adjusting a 50/70 to a 60/70 setting, and running the CSV1A at, say, 65?  I have a twenty gallon tank, so the draw-down with a 10psi differential would still be a couple gallons, which should ensure enough pump run time for short usages.

Would the air pressure still be set at ~2psi below the turn on pressure for a 10 psi spread?   

14

Pumps, Wells, Tanks, Controls / Re: Interesting Grundfos SQE Data

« on: August 12, 2015, 03:49:17 PM »

From what I've been reading, it kind of surprises me, too, that it has lasted this long.  Perhaps we just happened to get a good one (though I've now just cursed it).  We also have a whole house surge protector - maybe that has absorbed some small spikes that would have otherwise toasted it.

I'm thinking of getting rid of the CU301 and going to a CSV1A.  It might be nice to hang on to the CU301 as long as the pump lasts to be able to pull statistics every couple years.  The pump itself stores the data, though I'm not sure if it's running as an SQ if it can self update the data.  If not, I could probably sell the CU301 and R100 to pay for the CSV1A.

15

Pumps, Wells, Tanks, Controls / Interesting Grundfos SQE Data

« on: August 12, 2015, 02:29:58 PM »

I've had a Grundfos SQE 15-250 with CU301 installed since 12-2003.  No water related problems with pump or controller, though I did have to put noise filters on the circuit to prevent interference with our X-10 system.

Being somewhat of a techno nerd, I acquired an R100 remote a few years ago to be able to read the data stored in the pump.  As of 8/10/2015, here are the numbers reported by the system, with a few estimates of my own:

Power Consumption (kWh):  1,088*
Number of Starts:  176,471
Operating Hours:  1,016
Starts Per Op. Hr.:  173.7
Starts Per Day:  41.5  (4,248 days between 12/23/2003 and 8/10/2015)
kWh Per Day:  0.26

Estimated Gallons Pumped:  609,600   
Estimated Gallons Per Start:  3.5   
Estimated Gallons Per Day:  143.5

* The R100 reports a 40W load, when the pump is off.  If that is accurate, then an additional 4,000+ kWh of electricity were used in standby mode.  I need to measure that with amp meter to verify.  Pretty sad if true.

The pump is rated at 15gpm at 287' at high speed.  Our pump is hanging at 80' in our 130' well with static at 30'.  This pump could probably do 22-23 gpm from 80'.  I've conservatively used 10 gpm in the calculation for estimated gallons, since the pump is likely never running at full speed.

It's pretty obvious that the installer didn't do any sizing calculations, but probably used this same pump for every residential job.
 
We've never had the 2 gallon tank that Grundfos suggests, but had a fairly new 36 gallon when installed and a 20 gallon replacement for that installed 4 days ago.  I imagine the number of starts would be considerably higher had we been using the 2 gallon tank.

Ok, sorry for the long winded post, but hope someone finds it useful.