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Messages - Cary Austin

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1546
Pumps, Wells, Tanks, Controls / Real Solution
« on: May 13, 2008, 11:50:02 AM »
There are many ways to try and mitigate the problem of EDM currents from VFD controls.  Electronic filters, shaft grounding brushes, and insulated ball bearings can help reduce the electrical fluting of ball bearings caused by VFD controls.  These can be expensive band aids and do not address the root cause of the problem which is the VFD itself.

The best way to completely eliminate the problem it to do away with the VFD altogether.  If the motor requires a soft start, then use a soft starter with a bypass contact.  If the motor does not require soft start, then use a standard Across The Line starter.  Either way this will completely eliminate the shaft or EDM currents from a VFD, that are the actual cause of the problem.

If the flow rate of the pump needs to be variable, then using a Cycle Stop Valve will easily accomplish this task without any of the problems associated with VFD controls.  If the pump was chosen well, restricting the flow with a Cycle Stop Valve will reduce the energy consumption of the pump exactly the same as would a VFD.  It is also interesting to note that anytime a pump is running at maximum out put, a VFD causes it to use 5% to 10% more energy than if the pump were running Across The Line using a CSV as flow control.

1547
Pumps, Wells, Tanks, Controls / Motor Bearing Problem from VFD
« on: May 13, 2008, 11:33:38 AM »
Answer from a VFD person.

Yes it makes sense, it is a well known phenomenon now. In a nutshell, the high speed switching if the transistors in the VFD causes capacitance to form between the rotor and stator. So a current wants to flow, but the only path it has is across the bearings and races. Even though the amount is small, eventually it acts like an EDM system and causes pitting in the races, which deteriorate the bearings rather quickly.

You can either have grounding bushings installed on the motor shaft, or you can attempt to ameliorate it with filtering of the VFD output with very specifically designed load filters for that purpose. The absolute best practice would be both.

1548
Pumps, Wells, Tanks, Controls / Motor Bearing Problem from VFD
« on: May 13, 2008, 11:31:23 AM »
Question ask by a VFD customer.

I will start by stating I'm not a motor guy, I'm a water well contractor. The problem that I have run into is that I installed a all new vertical water lube turbine with a vertical hollow shaft motor, in a new well and new controls. This is a 150 hp 460 volt U.S. motor and Abb acs550 series drive. The pump runs as smooth as silk (no vibration)The pump load in under the bearing rating, and I can fine nothing wrong with the system.

The problem is that twice in the last six months the top bearing has start make horible noised and has had to be replaced under U.S. warranty. The motor shop is telling me that the cause of the bearing failure is "shaft current problems" caused be the relationship between the drive and motor. First, does this make sense? Also can some direct me to some reference material that is specific to hollow shaft motors? Finally, any ideas on preventing this in the future? Thanks for your help in advance.

1549
Pumps, Wells, Tanks, Controls / VFD's and Radio Interference
« on: December 11, 2007, 08:12:14 AM »
RFI from Grundfos Well Pump  Forum Help  

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RFI from Grundfos Well Pump  Reply  
by KF6MYE on February 20, 2007  Mail this to a friend!  
I have a GRUNDFOS model CU301 Water Well Pump system that makes RF noise on on a good portion of the HF bands. I contacted the company and they said they could do nothing and said I should install a line filter. I purchased a 220V line filter and installed it in the 220V line as close to the pump control as possible. It seemed to solve some of thge problem, but the noise is still there. The pump cotrol uses HF frequencies to control the speed of the pump. Was wonder if anyone had the same problem and fixed it?  
 
RE: RFI from Grundfos Well Pump  Reply  
by KG4RUL on February 21, 2007  Mail this to a friend!  
What is interesting about this unit is there is NO indication in the avialable, on-line documentation that it has passed UL testing or has been registered with the FCC! Does your equipment actually have labeling for either of these?

Dennis KG4RUL  
 
RE: RFI from Grundfos Well Pump  Reply  
by AB5GU on March 6, 2007  Mail this to a friend!  
You are going to see more and more of this problem. All of the A/C manufacturers are designing their new air conditioners and furnaces around this technology. The pump motor is a variable speed via variable frequency design. This is very different from the multi-speed motors you are used to. Normal motors run at 50 or 60 hz and change their speed by varying the number of poles (windings) engaged. This new style motor changes speed by changing the frequency of the input power. By changing the frequency, the running speed of the pump changes. The frequencies emmited are quite broad. They know that it is leaking signal too, refer to the multi pump instructions.You should use shielded wiring to a sepatate ground rod as stated in the manual. Also, PVC, CPVC, or PEX water piping close to the well and up to the house might help keep it from being transmitted into the house. I'd also put the wiring to the controller and between the controller and pump in EMT conduit, also tied into the ground rod.
I hope this helps,
Marty Haley AB5GU
Master Plumber, AA Air Conditioning Licensee, Water Well Operator License Class C  
 
RE: RFI from Grundfos Well Pump  Reply  
by KF4MM on July 3, 2007  Mail this to a friend!  
I just found this thread in a search for my own Forum that is about Water Well Pumps etc. The new variable speed motors are changing the frequency of the motors to vary the speed electronically and RFI isn't the only problem I have heard of with these motors.

Personally I have no use for the new technology as it is about 3 times the expense of a standard motor and about 1/3 as dependable. You can get the same result with a standard motor a small bladder tank and a Cycle Stop Valve that costs under $70.00.

I've been in the well business all my life and you will never find one of these units in my well.

bob...  
 
RE: RFI from Grundfos Well Pump  Reply  
by K7CF on December 3, 2007  Mail this to a friend!  
Had the same problem, same model as yours. Since there was no fix, removing the CU301 and putting in a larger tank, and having a sensor put in like in the good ol days is supposedly going to fix it. The pump is an SQE and according to the manufacturer, the pump and the CU301 send packets back and forth to each other at 130 KHZ or so, continuously as to whether there is turn on of the pump required. The CU301 and the SQE pump both have transmitters in them.
The Groundfos engineers say, eliminating the CU301 control box will make the problem go away. Will have to see.
All those folks who are putting out "transceivers" that harmonically interfere with Commercial AM radio and others from Pumps, furnaces, and others, are like General Motors did with the Corvair car, where they said the cost to fix is less than the cost to litigage as long as we allow them to get away with it, they will.

1550
Pumps, Wells, Tanks, Controls / VFD's and Radio Interference
« on: December 10, 2007, 09:50:35 AM »
It has long been known that "stray voltage" or "Radio Frequency Interference" or RFI from Variable Frequency Drives or VFD's, can cause problems with other devices in the area.  Television signals can be affected, cell phones, cordless phones, cordless mice, as well as AM and Ham radio's can all suffer from RFI generated from VFD controls.  Here are two links where RFI from VFD's are discussed at length.

http://www.eham.net/forums/RFI/1622   or see text below on second post.

http://www.eng-tips.com/viewthread.cfm?qid=203504&page=2  or see text below on third post.


According to these experts, there are several band aids that can reduce the amount of RFI but, RFI from VFD's cannot be eliminated.  The only way to avoid RFI all together is to control pump systems with something other than VFD control.

1551
Pumps, Wells, Tanks, Controls / Using CSV1's in parallel.
« on: April 04, 2007, 12:08:17 PM »
The CSV1.25 has about a 2.5 GPM minimum.  So if you use two of the CSV1's in parallel, you have about a 2 GPM minimum.  Four in parallel would give you a 4 GPM minimum and so on.

1552
Pumps, Wells, Tanks, Controls / Using CSV1's in parallel.
« on: April 04, 2007, 10:39:24 AM »
The CSV1.25 will basically do the same as two of the CSV1 valves in parallel.  I have had customers who used as many as four of the CSV1 valves in parallel for 100 GPM pumps.  They work great this way as long as you can get them installed without bending them or getting them in a bind.  Manifolding two or more valves together, it is just hard to keep them square or plumb.

1553
Pumps, Wells, Tanks, Controls / Valve sizing calculator
« on: March 14, 2007, 03:26:21 PM »

1554
Pumps, Wells, Tanks, Controls / VFD Soft Starter not soft enough
« on: March 13, 2007, 08:06:50 PM »
I spent the day at a rural water system in north Texas.  They are trying to use a couple of VFD’s as soft starters for two 40 HP Berkeley centrifugal pumps.  5,000 feet from the pump station to a stand pipe, through a 6" main, with distribution all along the way.  Pump has got to build 48 PSI before it starts moving water against the static head of the stand pipe.  3500 RPM pump doesn’t build 48 PSI until it reaches 2700 RPM.

Programmed to take 30 seconds to start up, the VFD spins the motor for 25 seconds before it reaches 2700 RPM.  Then the last 5 seconds gets it to 3500 RPM and the pressure gauge pegs out over 100 PSI, and slowly comes back to about 78 PSI fairly steady.  

We changed it to take 2 minutes to reach full speed.  The pump rattles through about 3 critical speeds during the minute and 40 seconds it takes to reach 2700 RPM.  The last 20 seconds is really all the soft start there is during 2 minutes of ramp up.  20 seconds is really not enough to stop a pressure spike.  The pressure quickly went to about 90 PSI before settling back to 78 PSI.

Then we tried ramping it down slowly.  Told to take 60 seconds to ramp down, nothing happened for about 10 seconds.  Then the pressure dropped off so fast, there wasn’t much difference from just cutting off the power.  The system dropped from 78 PSI to 10 PSI, bounced back to 80 and then hit 0 or lower.  The gauge bounced back and forth, subsiding a little each time for about 2 minutes, until it steadied out at 48 PSI, which is tower pressure.

The VFD or soft starter causes the pump to vibrate considerably, spending too much time going through several critical speeds.  The whining noise as the pump ramped up, was so loud that it drove the water operator out of the building each time.  The pressure bounces around so much, that pressure control to start and stop the pumps and alternate between the two would not work so, we were operating the pumps on manual.  Now they have to buy a telemetry system to operate the pumps from the stand pipe 5,000 feet away.  

At least the motor had a sticker on it claiming “Inverter Duty Voltage Spike Resistant Windings”.  This will help with the 2,000+ volt spikes sent to it by the Drive.  There was no load or line reactor type filter so, the odd numbered harmonics are being fed back into the power grid as well.  No grounding brushes on the rotor so, I am sure the ball bearings will be damaged by electrical fluting from the EDM currents very soon.

They are adding another stand pipe to the system and drilling another well.  The control system is going to get crazy.  This is not over.  I will let you know what they do.  I got some great footage.  Will be making a short video with it soon.
Cary

1555
Pumps, Wells, Tanks, Controls / Valve sizing calculator
« on: March 13, 2007, 07:21:44 PM »
Great news!!!  Valve sizing calculator is at the web guru right now.  He should have it up very soon.  He may even be reading this so, we are waiting on you Kris.  Kris at spattersweb.com does us a great job, and I am not just saying that because we are waiting on him.  Thanks Kris!


1556
Pumps, Wells, Tanks, Controls / Irrigating From Three Different Pumps
« on: February 07, 2007, 06:47:04 PM »
Excellent post Dennis!  Your explanations and drawings are very well done.  I’ll be looking for this in our competitors installation instructions very soon.  Too bad it will never really work with their slow reacting, fully closing type valves.

1557
The following is a letter from a Pump Installer in Colorado.

Dear Mr. Austin,

I've met you several times at the Mountain States Groundwater Show. I have used several different VFD's instead of using your valve thinking that it would be a better system. After seeing the prices of these systems rise from 3-5% every year for the last five years I started feeling very guilty selling little 3" pumps for thousands of dollars that probably won't last any longer than what I was selling and went back to using the Cycle Stop Valve. I always thought that putting back pressure on a pump would hurt it as much as turning a motor very fast. But after reading your website I have to make a big apology. I should have been using your system all along. I've had less call backs on systems where I've used Cycle Stop Valves they are more reliable than any VFD. I'm making a lot more money than I was with the VFD's also. My customers ask me how can you beat your competitors price by $1,000.00 or more. I just laugh and have to educate them about your product versus the big manufacturers. I hope to see you in Laughlin this year and you've made a customer for life. I'm done with expensive VFDs. Cycle Stops are all I will use.

Thank You,

Matt Beeman
Beeman Brothers Drilling Inc.
Durango, CO.

1558
Here are a few pictures.  VFD Before. Across the Line Starter and CSV After.






1559
The Cyclegard, Aquagenie, Hydroservant, and Smart Tee are all very similar to the Cycle Stop Valve. The simple difference is that they have a tiny hole drilled through them for the bypass. The tiny hole will easily become clogged with debris or just grows closed like the holes in a shower head. So they screen all the water going through the valve to try and keep the tiny hole from clogging. It has never been a good idea to put any kind of screen before the pressure switch/pressure tank. When and not if, either the screen or the tiny hole become clogged, then the pump is completely deadheaded and melts down in just a few minutes. These type valves have been around for decades and the principle of operation is the same as a Cycle Stop Valve until they stop up and destroy your pump. This is why they have been around so long and still have not caught on.

The Cycle Stop Valve does not have a tiny hole to stop up. Therefore there is no need for a screen. The CSV has a simple patented half moon notch on the valve seat instead of a hole. There is no hole until the valve closes, then the half moon notch conforms into a bypass. When the valve opens, anything that could have clogged the bypass is easily flushed through. This eliminates any possibility of dead heading the pump. With larger valves the patented non-closing function of the Cycle Stop Valve eliminates valve hunting and water hammer that is prevalent in these other type valves which have fully closing valve seats.

Of these other valves only the Cyclegard and Smart Tee are still available on the market.  Similarities in these other valves in design, advertisements, and instructions to the Cycle Stop Valve is flattering.  It also proves that we are not completely alone in this, everybody else is pushing VFD world, and that the principle operation of a Cycle Stop Valve is sound.  It is just that the non-closing bypass design of the Cycle Stop Valve is completely dependable and solves most of the problems associated with fully closing valves using drilled or external bypasses such as the Cyclegard and Smart Tee.

We have several articles on our web page that explains these things at Cyclestopvalves.com
http://www.cyclestopvalves.com/comparisons_12.html

The following link is a short video of one of the larger Cyclegard valves compared to a Cycle Stop Valve which is the non closing valve. Open with Windows Media Player

http://www.cyclestopvalves.com/video...gvalve-dsl.wmv

See the attached picture of a Cyclegard with it's screen completely clogged with debris. In this particular case, the debris you see is actually plastic from the pump impellers which have already been destroyed.


1560
Pumps, Wells, Tanks, Controls / Homeowner VFD or CSV
« on: February 04, 2007, 05:15:13 PM »
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VFD systems have so many complications that very few people understand them all. I learned what I know about VFD the hard way. I experienced the problems in the field, then I researched the subject until I figured out what caused the problem. This was pre Internet days and was much harder to get the information needed. These days people can easily search the web for this information. I could explain these things for you but I took the time to find a few links so you could read it in someone else's words. There are many more articles on the web that will give you the real story, not just the white washed version that is in brochures of those who sell VFD's.

"Wire insulation breakdown voltages have nothing to do with anything. If you exceed the insulation breakdown voltage you have really screwed up the design and the system will fail."
"This causes very high turn-to-turn voltages which can produce premature insulation breakdown."

http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0BPR/is_11_17/ai_67339988


"There are no 1000V spikes inherent in a VFD. If they were generated by the switching devices (e.g., opening an inductive [motor] load, the electronics must eliminate them or the switching devices would generally fail. This is usually accomplished by a reverse diode across the switching device to dump the resulting energy spike."
"This creates a severe voltage spike in the source, in this case the output transistors of the VFD, which can immediately cause them to short from dV/dt (too rapid of a rate of change in voltage), or at the very least do incremental damage to the silicon substrate of the transistor. The drive doesn't really "care", but the owner will when the repair and downtime bill comes in."
http://www.usmotors.com/Datasheets/PDF_PDS/pds204-194.pdf

"This motor, as it becomes available, would be the preferred choice for 480V and 575V IGBT drive systems having 2 pu reflected wave motor voltages of 1300 Vpk and 1600 Vpk respectively." See Riding the Reflective Wave at

http://www.ab.com/drives/techpapers/ieee/pcic.pdf


"VFD motors are designed for variable speed. Motors that are not will probably not suffer from imbalance. There may be other electrical issues, but they are balanced. There may be resonances, but balanced is balanced."
You are correct about it being resonance and not balance but the motor does not know the difference because it is still vibrating like crazy. Motors specifically made to work with VFD are standard induction motors that have been modified with 2,000 volt insulation, insulated bearings, shaft grounding capability, etc. to try and offset the destructive parameters of the VFD.
"The motor used in a VFD system is usually a standard squirrel cage three phase induction motor."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Variable_Frequency_Drive

"Properly designed systems do not put noise back on the power line. A VFD drive generally first converts line voltage to a DC supply using the same type of switching power supplies mentioned by Bob NH. This power supply effectively decouples the VFD signal from the line. A DC supply meeting current standards also corrects power factor to the line."
"When these diode blocks conduct power to charge the DC bus of the drive they cause an imbalance in the current waveform that causes an imbalance in the voltage waveform. This imbalance (disturbance) appears at the input of the drive and is reflected into the AC line feeding the drive."

http://www.usmotors.com/Datasheets/PDF_PDS/pds204-194.pdf

"Yes a square wave generates all harmonics of the fundamental frequency. No it does not get back to the line in a properly designed system. In a poorly designed system it mostly annoys things like X10 remote controls which operate at very low frequencies. The harmonics may also annoy an AM radio with little line isolation or via radiation for short ranges. As noted, so will a PC or flourescent light. I have some lights I bought from HD and they ruin my FM radio reception. They have lousy line isolation and the tubes radiate. Local radiation is short range and since the wavelength of the frequencies involved in an VFD are very long the equipment is not a very efficient antenna; hence minimal ambient radiation. A switching power supply (which also generates square waves) can have switching frequencies into the megahertz range and are much more likely to be a problem."
"This imbalance (disturbance) appears at the input of the drive and is reflected into the AC line feeding the drive."

http://www.ab.com/drives/techpapers/ieee/pcic.pdf

"I am also not sure why a VFD drive would provide less overall efficiency when matched to the load characteristics than any other possible solution. Certainly not pumping at max capacity and throwing away some large fraction of the energy applied via a bypass back to the source. That is not why VFD drives are very popular industrial solution as a energy saving device. A VFD pump coupled with the appropriate sensor should provide a very effective pumping solution without wasted energy."
"A VFD does provide efficient control for pumping applications. There is just such little difference in constant pressure systems in using a drive and restricting the flow of a pump with a valve, (not dumping excess flow with a valve) that it never pays back the added expense."
http://www.cyclestopvalves.com/comparisons_13.html

"I do not believe that the concept of "carrier frequency" applies to a VFD controller."
"The switching rate of the output transistors is controlled by the VFD's Carrier Frequency parameter. Increasing the Carrier Frequency will reduce the audible noise from the motor."
http://www.control.com/1026203703/index_html

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