I'd like to optimize my well water system...help needed.

[Cary Austin]

Yes on everything except you can get the CSV125  as tight as needed.

[bjm999]

Thanks for letting me try the CSV125!  I was able to change the CSV from a CSV2W to the CSV12560-3.




Here are the results:  ***The pressure is in PSI for each irrigation zone were taken from the tank pressure gauge after reaching steady state***

                CSV2W       CSV12560-3

Zone 1          51                  58

Zone 2          57                  61

Zone 3          49                  53

Zone 4          54                  59

Zone 5          50                  58

Zone 6          61                  61

Zone 7          42                  46

Zone 3 and Zone 7 had the least amount of pressure increase below the 60 PSI set pressure of the CSV.  They both had an increase of only 4 PSI.  From the earlier post in this thread I was thinking the difference would be more like 10 PSI.  I'm not sure it was worth the effort to go with a less robust CSV for those results to be honest.  If it leaks in a couple years due to debris in the water, I'll likely go back to the CSV2W to avoid the hassle/maintenance/expense.  Not sure if I did something wrong but it didn't make a ton of difference like we expected.  Any ideas?

The first time I had everything together I had a couple leaks (1 at the union and 1 at the CSV) so I had to take the union apart and redo the teflon tape on the nipple/CSV connection.  I only hand tightened the CSV per the instructions and after reworking it the 2nd time I only have 1 very slow leak at the nipple/CSV connection.  I put everything I had into hand tightening so I'm kinda scared to try to go 1 more full turn using a wrench.  Should I try 1 more full turn with a wrench or do you think I will jeopardize breaking the valve?  Maybe I should back it back off and try to redo the teflon tape and re hand tighten.  I used about 6 layers of the teflon tape per the instructions.

Thanks again for supplying the CSV12560-3!!!

[Cary Austin]

Good info!  I would like to know the pressure before and after the CSV125 when running zone 7? 

Yes you can use a wrench if needed.  But I would probably back it off and add some new teflon before tightening again.

[bjm999]

I was able to connect the pressure gauges to the pipe and get the pressure before and after the CSV125.

With the tank at full pressure but no water running the pressure at the tee (before the CSV125) the pressure was 66 psi.  At the spigot after the CSV125 the pressure was 63 psi, and the pressure at the tank (in my crawl space about 60' away the pressure way 67 psi.

While running zone 7 after a few minutes, at steady state, the pressure at the tee (before the CSV125) was 53 psi.  At the spigot after the CSV125 the pressure was 40 psi, and the pressure at the tank (in my crawl space about 60' away the pressure way 46 psi.  The pictures below are of the gauges with zone 7 running.


This is the gauge at the tee before the CSV125 at 53 psi...



Here is the gauge after the CSV125 at the spigot.  Looks like it reads ~42 but the camera wasn't straight in front of it.  When I read it directly in front of the gauge it was 40 psi.



This is the gauge at my tank 60' away at 46 psi.





Also just for fun here is the pressure at one of the heads on Zone 7.  It read 32 PSI.




Seems strange that the gauge at my tank read a higher pressure than at the spigot right after the CSV125.  Also notice the difference before and after the CSV125 was 13 psi.  If I understood your previous post we were expecting that to be ~7 psi.

Think my gauge after the CSV125 (at the spigot) is reading wrong?

Overall thoughts???

[Cary Austin]

At steady state the gauge before and after the CSV should be the same.  So, yes one or both of those gauges is off, but that is normal.  Swap those two gauges and you will get a much better reading.  Probably much closer to the 7 PSI loss you should have with a flow rate of about 45 GPM.  The gauge at the house is probably off as well, but you will gain 1 PSI for every 2.31' in elevation drop from the well to the tank.  6 PSI difference would mean your well is 13' higher than the tank at the house.

[bjm999]

The tank is actually a few feet higher than the well.  I don't have 45 GPM in any zone.  Knowing the pressure gauges have some inaccuracies leads me back to the tank pressure gauge reading with Zone 7 running.  With the CSV2W the reading was 42 PSI.  With the CSV12560-3 it was 46 PSI. 

Should the CSV12560-3 only made a 4 PSI difference in your opinion?

Thanks!

[Cary Austin]

I was  guessing 7 PSI on the large zone, but gauges are good at lying to you.  Lol.  All that matters is if the sprinklers are shooting far enough?

[bjm999]

Yes the sprinklers are shooting far enough.  I guess this thread was more about optimizing my system.  By that I mean getting a more optimum pressure at the heads (better distribution, coverage, etc.) while also trying to get constant pressure in the house more than I previously did which was never lol.  The CSV12560-3 has done a better job of those things but I'm not sure if it's worth the extra maintenance and long term expense.  I may just see how long it lasts and go from there.

I think the bottom line is I'm likely on the edge of what my pump can produce flow wise and that is leading to the CSV not being much help at giving me constant pressure for most irrigation zones.  It also doesn't give me constant pressure inside the house during most uses.  Really the CSV is only helping give constant pressure at 60PSI on maybe 3-4 zones and inside the house when multiple fixtures are being used.  The pressure drop of the CSV may not be worth the help of providing such limited constant pressure...again this is due to my pump struggling not the CSV. 

I can't help but wonder in my case, if a variable speed pump would be the best answer.  I could eliminate the CSV thus gaining the pressure drop caused by the valve. That would further optimize my irrigation and get more zones closer to the preferred 40 PSI.  It would also create a constant pressure inside the house at most or all flow rates ie. only 1 fixture being used.

[Cary Austin]

There is nothing, especially a VFD, that can make a 3HP pump produce more than 3HP worth of water.  There is at least 5% inherent losses in a VFD, which increases slip in the motor, which decreases the max amount a pump can produce.  In most cases, the VFD will produce less water from the same pump as a CSV.  It just can't get to max speed because of the increased slip. Also, because of these inherent losses the minimum flow needed to cool a pump controlled by a VFD is much higher than when using a CSV.  So the pump would actually cycle more for house uses less than about 5 GPM with a VFD, as that is how much it takes to keep the motor cool.

One advantage of the CSV is that you can bypass it.  For zones that are large enough to keep the pump from cycling, just tee off before the CSV.  However, on smaller zones like number 3 and 4 the pump will cycle on/off, as those zones are not using the max flow the pump can produce.  And even though the CSV is not preventing the pump from cycling when using less than 3 GPM, it is still cycling much slower with the CSV filling the tank at 3 GPM than without a CSV where the pump would fill the tank at 40 GPM.

If you can make all your zones large enough to keep the pump from cycling off, then you can tee off to all the irrigation after the CSV.  Then the pressure to the  heads is only limited by the amount the pump can produce while working with no losses from any type of control.  If you drill out your "water saver" washers on the showerheads from 2.5 to 3 GPM, the showers will see could strong constant pressure from the CSV as well.  I find with the so called "water saver" washer drilled out people can get the soap washed off quicker and actually do not use any more water during showers.  They just take quicker showers.

In your case the CSV is not so much for delivering constant pressure to all the zones, but more to keep the pump from cycling itself to death on the smaller zones, as all the zones are not matched to the pump.

[bjm999]

Sorry for the late reply!  Also, thanks for replying and offering possible solutions.  Having some zones before the CSV and some after would require 2 mainlines and 2 controllers.  I think for now, I'll continue to try the CSV12560-3.  I also need to add more sod and another zone near Zone 7.  The new zone was going to be small so I can spilt some head on Zone 7 off to the new zone to help both Zone 7 and the new zone flow rate/pressure.

What's weird is when I tested the water flow in post 4 I got ~35 GPM conservatively.  There's no way Zone 3 is putting out more than about 24 GPM.  Any idea why this zone isn't getting to 60 GPM?

Do you think the stainless version of the CSV12560-3 would last longer?

Thanks again for your help!

[Cary Austin]

Without a flow meter it is hard to tell.  But my guess is there is more water going somewhere than you think.  Otherwise it doesn't make any sense.

No the SS version of the CSVS125 will not last any longer.  The internals are the same as the plastic valve.  The SS body is just made to hold more weight when these are installed in the well.

[bjm999]

Sorry in my last post I meant 60 psi not gpm.

I would like to add a flowmeter but not sure where to put it.  It may require several pipe diameters of length before and after.  I've had trouble in the past finding a flowmeter reasonably priced for the pipe diameter and range I need.  Do you recommend any?  Something still doesn't seem to be adding up.  The pressure gauges aren't reliable due to error and the flows don't make sense.

Thanks!

[Cary Austin]

I agree. I think the gauges are off a bit, which is normal.  But the numbers indicate a higher flow rate than you are saying.  A flow meter would be nice, but they also add more friction loss.  Regardless of the flow rate, the pressure gauge indicates you pump is maxed out, and adding a flow meter would make it worse.

[bjm999]

Yeah, I'd love to have a bypass with the flowmeter.  Then I could turn the flowmeter on when needed and off when not needed thus eliminating the pressure loss during normal conditions.  That probably more trouble than it's worth...but the engineer in me wants to figure this out before letting it go. Lol!

If I went with a larger pump, which would you recommend?  Probably couldn't get one to have constant pressure for my irrigation and house water fixtures I bet.  Ie. If I went with a 5hp pump I'd probably have constant pressure for my irrigation but be stuck with a cycling pump for the indoor fixtures.

[Cary Austin]

Did you ever swap those two gauges and do the test from post #33 again? 

One thing for sure if you want 60 PSI the pump will need to be able to build at least 60 PSI at flow or it wouldn't be large enough even without the CSV.

With the right 5HP I can make it work down to about 2 GPM, maybe 1.7 GOM. if that would help with more constant pressure in the house?  But would only give constant pressure when using 2 GPM or more.  The 5HP would up the pressure at the well head by quite a bit, which would let all your zones work at 60 PSI after the CSV125.